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  1. #11
    benjiboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwall View Post
    If I can see something with my eyes, what is the difference exactly if I take a photograph of it? At least here in the United States, if something is visible from public property, there is no presumption of privacy. Apropos your final point, how shall "government agencies" discover mistreatment unless they are first informed it is occurring and have demonstrable proof thereof? Or do you favor arbitrary random searches and inspections of private property by "government agencies."
    I can't believe that in the U.S that there are no state or government inspectors that visit farms and check what farm animals are fed on and their welfare on the grounds of a public health if nothing else.
    Ben

  2. #12
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwall View Post
    Or do you favor arbitrary random searches and inspections of private property by "government agencies."
    If these farms are producing food for human consumption then not only do I favour random searches and inspections, but I expect it to be the norm. Just like it is for restaurants and cafés.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  3. #13
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjiboy View Post
    I can't believe that in the U.S that there are no state or government inspectors that visit farms and check what farm animals are fed on and their welfare on the grounds of a public health if nothing else.
    There are reasons most of you blokes from the UK think of us as uncivilized rabble. This is one.

    As a guy who grew up in a farm community, and who has not only long cultural, but also financial roots to farming, I sometimes wonder about our regulatory systems, too.

    Not that I'm advocating regular government inspections. But I would advocate more standardized procedures. And I think the food processing companies could enforce that by financial incentive. For example, "If you deliver products that meet standard Q we'll pay a 5% premium," would get a lot of farmer's attention. 5% is a lot of margin loss for not meeting the standard.

    But farm policy is a long stretch for a photo web site.

    MB
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
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    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markster View Post
    Whether or not there's a few bad eggs, looking at the link in the original post, this is to prevent eco-terrorist type groups from infiltrating, disrupting, and attempting to harm damage or destroy otherwise acceptible companies.
    Well, it cuts both ways; there are bad actors in the animal-processing business who would love to have immunity from being documented, and there are bad actors in the animal-activism business who would love to have a free pass to distort the image of maliciously chosen targets. Probably most of the people involved don't think they're in either group---it seems to be human nature to think we're in the right even when we're doing truly outrageous things.

    I just tend to think that criminalizing the mechanics of depicting specific subjects isn't the greatest way to address the issue. If the CAFOs (or slaughterhice or whatever) don't want to be photographed, well, they're private property on which such a rule can be enforced; if someone promulgates deceptive information, with or without photos, legally or illegally obtained, defamation law would seem to apply. What's the problem with this regime, exactly?

    (As background, I have owned and run an animal boarding facility, though I doubt it would be considered "animal processing" in the terms of the proposal discussed here.)

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjiboy View Post
    I can't believe that in the U.S that there are no state or government inspectors that visit farms and check what farm animals are fed on and their welfare on the grounds of a public health if nothing else.
    Here in the US we have a phenomenon known as "regulatory capture"--regulators who are so close to the industry they're supposed to watch over, they act as enablers rather than public servants. Lobbyists get people friendly to their position to write lax rules and supress inspections and investigations. It's the sort of thing that inspires people, for better or worse, to take matters into their own hands. Sure, private property owners have a right to deny you permission to take photos--does that mean that you should be thrown in jail for it?

  6. #16
    semeuse's Avatar
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    I notice that the focus is always on animal processing. I propose this experiment:

    Sit the representative from the advocacy group, say...PETA, at a dinner table. Offer them a choice of two dishes. One, chicken from an American farm bought at a typical large US supermarket. Simply roasted or grilled, no fancy sauces or anything. Just chicken.
    Two, a vegetable and fruit platter, also purchased at a typical US supermarket.
    When they reach for the fruit, ask them if they know where it came from. Something like 60% of fruits and vegetables sold in the US are imported. Want some peppers from Mexico, perhaps? Or some grapes from Chile? What kind of chemicals did the farmers in those countries use. Or maybe some celery from a mechanized farm in the south. Probably has more chemistry in it than your darkroom.

    Personally, I'd pass on both. The point is, regulation and treatment are all nice, but I think I'll go take pictures at the organic local farmer's place and join him later at the local bar for a beer and pizza. If I know my producers and they know me, we tend to build a better trust.

  7. #17
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semeuse View Post
    .....I think I'll go take pictures at the organic local farmer's place and join him later at the local bar for a beer and pizza. If I know my producers and they know me, we tend to build a better trust.
    No fair. We can't be trying to make sense here.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  8. #18
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    We are forgetting one part of the equation here with our food supply. We're forgetting that human beings have to farm, pick and process our food. Most of them are the invisible class of people that are undocumented. Don't know how some APUGers feel about them, but they are involved with our food supply like it or not. Are they worth photographing? Stirring the pot here.

  9. #19
    kwall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjiboy View Post
    I can't believe that in the U.S that there are no state or government inspectors that visit farms and check what farm animals are fed on and their welfare on the grounds of a public health if nothing else.
    Of course there are. There aren't enough of them, arguably, but that's a different issue. My point was that suggesting I can't take photographs of Activity X because there are government inspectors that will monitor Activity X is at best ill-advised; bureaucracies are inefficient and mostly interested in self-preservation.

    Actually, my real point is that privacy, in this particular instance, stops at the fence line

  10. #20
    MattKing's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like they are trying to make privacy rights which would otherwise only be enforceable in civil court into public responsibilities that can and will be enforced by the state.

    The threat of a civil suit for trespass probably wouldn't be much of a disincentive for people involved with PETA. Even a criminal prosecution for trespass wouldn't be much of a threat, especially in jurisdictions which don't impose serious criminal sanctions for trespass (like Canada where daytime trespass isn't even a crime).

    I
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

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