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  1. #21
    M.A.Longmore's Avatar
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    Gentlemen { terminology used loosely },

    * I'm assuming female members wouldn't be involved in this CatFight !

    It's Friday { Saturday } ... Is This Really Necessary

    Put The Egos Away ! Put some friggin film in a frigging camera,
    and go take some friggin pictures. Before someone starts another
    " Film Is Dead " , or " Stop Bath vs Water Rinse " thread.

    50,913 Members at this moment, we all love analog photography
    lets take a little time to make each other right, instead of, who is wrong.

    I Eschew Negativity ...

    Enjoy The Weekend !

    Ron
    .

  2. #22
    puptent's Avatar
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    I believe that you will want to address your letter to the Department of Defense, as DoD is responsible for security at VA facilities.
    "We often think that when we have completed our study of one we know all about two, because 'two' is 'one and one'. We forget that we have still to make a study of 'and'."
    -A. S. Eddington

  3. #23

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    another thread on "ignore"

  4. #24

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    Your letter is quite long winded, but from what I get out of it you are asking what you can photograph at the VA even though your issue is that you were standing on VA property distracting security personnel and possibly blocking an entrance and exit point and trying to conduct a business transaction with someone that was there for business with the VA but you were not there to escort them. Does that sum it up?

    I say drop it or just ask if you can photograph the VA from on the property or do you have to be off the property to photograph it.

    I believe that you should have the right to photograph whatever you want to from public property, or with permission on private property and if they don't want it photographed they should put up a wall, but as someone that has had to spend an unfair amount of time in VA hospitals I would also ask you to please not distract the VA Police while they are trying to keep the hospital safe for veterans that are too sick to defend themselves.
    "Would you like it if someone that painted in oils told you that you were not making portraits because you were using a camera?"
    "Shouldn't it be more about the joy of producing and viewing the photo than what you paid for the camera?"

    Me

  5. #25

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    To the OP; Less is More! Follow the advice of Sgt. Joe Friday; The facts, just the facts.

    Always get the name, or ID badge number, of anyone confronting/challenging you in the manner you describe.
    Include that person's name in any and all correspondence.

    In all facets of life, there is a chain-of-command. Send your inquiry to the head of the specific VA hospital in question first.
    If the response is not to your satisfaction, then send a follow-up inquiry to the regional head of Va hospitals, and so on, working your way up the chain.

  6. #26

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    Good Lord. You send this and the BEST you can hope for is agent whatshisname has a good laugh, wads it up and tosses it in the trash.

    This is a letter from a kook. The next time the Committee That Really Runs Things decides to assassinate a prominent politician they'll use this letter in their scheme to pin the crime to you. They'll have video of your lookalike passing out "Fair Play for Photographers" leaflets in front of the Libyan embassy. Time magazine will have a grainy (analog, of course) photo of you in your backyard with your camera in one hand and a rolled up copy of Aperture in the other. We will all learn the story of the three years you defected to digital and then re-defected back to film. A hastily-convened committee will report that you acted alone.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Daniel View Post
    I will raise another issue related to hospitals: patient privacy. I walked on to the grounds of a nearby hospital one day with a camera on a tripod, and by the time I had all three legs on the ground there was security guard by my side saying that I couldn't take photos. I asked him why, and he said it was to protect patient's privacy. I said that I was not including any people in the shot. He said that the hospital was erring on the patient's side, and he gave me the name and number of someone to call to discuss access for photography.

    All very nice and polite on his part. Having recently been involved with the US Census and going into hospitals and other facilities, I had been cued in to the amount of attention paid to this issue at such places. I think the law is referred to as HIPAA?

    So, there is a chance that the camera was responded to on this basis. In my reading of your letter, you were on the hospital grounds when asked not to photograph, although still outside their 'secured' zone. Expecting a guard to determine dry firing, etc., is not reasonable. To protect patient's privacy, the blanket policy is 'no cameras.'

    A simple follow-up call to the director of facilities or such should answer this.
    None of this is relevant, nor is any of Lyga's rant. The law is simple. If you are on private property, the owner sets the policy. Government property would be considered "private" in this kind of instance, and when for instance Dan "walked on to the grounds" he became subject to their policies. If he were photographing the grounds from a public place, there isn't anything they could do about that. If a person is in view from public property, hospital patient or not, on private property or not, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy, because they are in public view. They do have rights to their image and likeness however, and a releasewould needed to use such an image commercially, or they could sue you. The same goes for property. That would be a tort matter however, and not a "crime" per se, and is relevant to the use of the image, not the making of it.

    If you are on public property, you can photograph anything you can see, regardless if it is on public or private property. The only exceptions to this are certain "sensitive" installations. These are usually posted as such, and are usually "top secret" military installations and the ilk. The exterior and grounds of VA hospitals as seen from public space aren't on the list AFAIK.

    I often ran into poorly trained security guards that would challenge my right to photograph (videotape footage) a facility or building from a public place when I worked for TV stations. I was always cordial, and if they were persistent in telling me I couldn't shoot footage from a public place I would invite them to call the police. In the few instances where they did just that, an officer would show up and explain the law to the security guard, who would usually then disappear, or occasionally just lurk around and exhibit Olympic grade glowering. Remember, security guard is generally a bottom feeder job, so higher cognitive function in one is the exception rather than the rule. I'm pretty sure security guards exasperate Special FBI Agents in Charge, as well as photographers.

    In reality it is very simple. Property control their spaces, but that control doesn't extend to adjacent public spaces. One doesn't need the FBI involved to figure this out, and it is unlikely that they or anyone will bother with this particular incident beyond a good snort..
    Last edited by JBrunner; 06-17-2011 at 03:14 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    That's just, like, my opinion, man...

  8. #28
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Brunner's reply

    I never thought of Federal Govt property being private: if so, then I guess that they make the laws. BUT...why is that not promulgated instead of being kept secret?

    Yes there is some stuff to Google about me. About the I LOATHE WHEN BLACK KIDS.. let me neatly clarify that some of us should not be jumping to conclusions about racism. The BALANCE of that statement was....REFUSE TO LEARN HOW TO READ PROPERLY. TUTORING AVAILABLE (and then I give my contact info). Not really so bad, right?

    Long winded letter? I was never accused of being frugal with prolixity but the letter said things that HAD to be said and if I offended any LAW ENFORCEMENT or PATRIOT types I apolgize for the sensitivity issue but cannot retract what NEEDED to be said. 'Nuff said.

    I thank ALL for their valuable input. If David Lyga is 'hung' at least he made his desperate point! - David Lyga

  9. #29
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    The federal government has the same rights as a private citizen or corporation when it comes to purchasing and owning property. Some property it allows guests (national parks), others it does not (military bases). It is at the property owner's discretion.
    www.gregorytdavis.com

    Did millions of people suddenly disappear? This may have an answer.

    "No one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." -Matthew 24:36

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    IAbout the I LOATHE WHEN BLACK KIDS.. let me neatly clarify that some of us should not be jumping to conclusions about racism. The BALANCE of that statement was....REFUSE TO LEARN HOW TO READ PROPERLY. TUTORING AVAILABLE (and then I give my contact info). Not really so bad, right?
    No, still bad. Do you not loathe when white kids refuse to learn how to read?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    Long winded letter? I was never accused of being frugal with prolixity but the letter said things that HAD to be said and if I offended any LAW ENFORCEMENT or PATRIOT types I apolgize for the sensitivity issue but cannot retract what NEEDED to be said. 'Nuff said.
    Maybe it needed to be said in a pub on Friday night, but not in a letter to the FBI. And please try to resist the urge to label anyone who thinks you coud have handled it differently. I'm not law enforcement or a "patriot type"; in fact, I'm all for photographers being able to exercise their rights without having to traverse the chain of command first, but your letter does nothing to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    If David Lyga is 'hung' at least he made his desperate point! - David Lyga
    I really don't care how well endowed you are, and you really haven't made any point at all.

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