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  1. #11
    zsas's Avatar
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    See the seller terms, but in short, you must receive payment via Goods (not gift ), ship to the address as provided by the paypal payment (I would use the Paypal shipping tool to generate postage because that feeds the shipping label), if the payment for the goods is $250 or more, you need proof of delivery via a signature...see Section 11, read careful, just remember Gift is no gift if either party claims foul...the sellers fee is "insurance enough" to sleep well....provided you read 11 a few times and stick to it, it is detailed but seems to make sense...

    https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...%20Protection.
    Andy

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    See the seller terms, but in short, you must receive payment via Goods (not gift ), ship to the address as provided by the paypal payment (I would use the Paypal shipping tool to generate postage because that feeds the shipping label), if the payment for the goods is $250 or more, you need proof of delivery via a signature...see Section 11, read careful, just remember Gift is no gift if either party claims foul...the sellers fee is "insurance enough" to sleep well....provided you read 11 a few times and stick to it, it is detailed but seems to make sense...

    https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full#13. PayPal Purchase Protection.
    It is important to note that the link here is for PayPal in the United States. It is necessary to check the rules in the Seller's country of residence instead (e.g. the rules for me specify that my residence must be in Canada, rather than the US).
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #13
    zsas's Avatar
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    Wow! Good to know!! So in short, scratch what I said and read your serv agreement for yor country!

    For what it is worth, I thinks Paypal provides some protection for the buyer /seller, so long as you follow all the terms and as Matt mentions, be sure they are the terms for your country....

    I have been on both ends of buyer/seller issues and Paypal has always come out with my utmost appreciation, I was sure to follow the terms though and that is all I wish to impart, especially since they differ by country
    Andy

  4. #14

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    When I post items overseas I always take an iphone photo when the package is sitting stamped & ready to go on the post office counter. If it is slow to arrive & the buyer is sending me anxious messages I can send them an image of their goods just about to enter the postal system. I think for a genuine buyer that will give them some reassurance, that at least I'm not cheating them. This relates to the OPs question in that it might dissuade the buyer from impetuously starting a paypal claim.

  5. #15

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    The camera was coming from Sinapore to the Falkland Islands. The tracking showed that it arrived in UK but then the tracking system does not work within UK. It was not paid as a gift but as goods, Paypla refused refund. I've bought loads of stuff through Ebay and rarely had any problems.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W View Post
    When I post items overseas I always take an iphone photo when the package is sitting stamped & ready to go on the post office counter. If it is slow to arrive & the buyer is sending me anxious messages I can send them an image of their goods just about to enter the postal system. I think for a genuine buyer that will give them some reassurance, that at least I'm not cheating them. This relates to the OPs question in that it might dissuade the buyer from impetuously starting a paypal claim.
    I do the same thing. Obviously this is useful only in case of genuine buyers. It wouldn't mean diddly to Payapl.

  7. #17
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    Thanks for all your replies. I already looked at both the US and Dutch Paypal user agreement terms.

    There are differences, but only in wording really. For example the Dutch terms bluntly state that the seller is not protected in case of sales outside ebay (11.6/11.10). The US regulations state (11.5): "Items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller protection: PayPal Direct Payments." I take this to be all transactions from one paypal account to another not made through a buy-it-now button like on ebay. So to answer my own question in the OP: the seller is NOT protected in outside-ebay, private transactions, such as on APUG.

    But, the same goes for the buyer side of things. Dutch (13.3) and US terms (13.3) are identically unequivocal on this: "Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection: (13.) PayPal Direct Payments".

    So as far as paypal is concerned everybody is on their own once outside the realm of ebay (or most other business, non-private transactions): no protection for either seller or buyer. But then who gets suckered when nonetheless the buyer opens a dispute? According to the above terms the buyer should not get his money back.

    Moving on, where do the credit card companies join in? That's in US 13.7 (same text in Dutch version). This section contains the following nasty paragraph: "Credit card Chargeback rights, if they apply, are broader than PayPal’s protection programs. Chargebacks may be filed more than 45 Days after the payment, may cover unsatisfactory items even if they do not qualify as SNAD, and may cover intangible items. You may pursue a Dispute/Claim with PayPal, or you may contact your credit card company and pursue your Chargeback rights."

    This basically undermines all of paypal's terms, because who doesn't have their paypal account coupled to their credit card? As far as I know credit card companies, especially in the US (less so in Netherlands perhaps), have lots of power to charge back transactions made by their clients, on the basis of very little proof of item not arrived/ not as described (please correct me if i'm wrong). I can't imagine paypal being able to keep the card company's money. If that's true then so much for paypal's own rules and regulations.

    I think I understand the paypal terms pretty well now. It's the credit card company's potential involvement that I don't yet grasp. Are these companies omnipotent towards the poor lonesome private seller?

    Did anybody here on APUG ever overrule paypal through his credit card company in case of INR/SNAD? Or become 'victim' of the reverse situation?

  8. #18
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Some clarification:

    “Item Not Received” (INR)
    “Significantly Not as Described” (SNAD)

  9. #19
    zsas's Avatar
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    ^ I am confused? PayPal Direct Payment is not the same thing (I believe) as a Paypal payment typically done outside of Ebay for "Goods". I believe Direct Payment is where you enable on your website a store that processes using Paypal as the "back layer" as an API (in IT terms)

    https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...PDirectPayment
    Andy

  10. #20
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    ^ I am confused? PayPal Direct Payment is not the same thing (I believe) as a Paypal payment typically done outside of Ebay for "Goods". I believe Direct Payment is where you enable on your website a store that processes using Paypal as the "back layer" as an API (in IT terms)

    https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...PDirectPayment
    On the Dutch paypal site the term used for transactions not covered is "private transactions" (privé transacties). I don't see how I can read that in any other way than a payment from me to you.

    That said, I should have left out the words "identically unequivocal" in my saying: "But, the same goes for the buyer side of things. Dutch (13.3) and US terms (13.3) are identically unequivocal on this: "Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection: (13.) PayPal Direct Payments"."

    You may be right in your interpretation of "Direct Payment". I am not knowledgeable enough to tell. Need a lawyer!

    The way I read it (in both languages and in its context) I don't believe that private transactions (private person a to b) are covered by paypal's buyer- or seller protection program.

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