Paypal and buyer/seller protection outside ebay

[Aja B]

Just a quick comment re: two attempts I've made to settle disputes involving PayPal and fraudulent sellers. In both cases sellers offered X, I agreed to purchase X and they shipped Y. A deaf, dumb and blind person would have recognized the criminality. I provided overwhelming evidence from four impartial and expert 'witnesses' to support my irrefutable case. PayPal, being judge and jury, was of no help whatsoever. PayPal staff have been amongst the most uneducated and incompetent people with whom I have ever dealt. Period. I repeat: there was absolutely no room for even the most bizarre, drug-induced interpretation of straight-up criminal transactions. PayPal didn't see it that way.

[zsas]

On the Dutch paypal site the term used for transactions not covered is "private transactions" (privé transacties). I don't see how I can read that in any other way than a payment from me to you.

Try this, login Paypal, click on Send Money, are there two tabs, 1) Purchase, 2) Personal (aka privé transacties)?

In the US, 2) Personal are not covered (ie Gift, cash advance, living expense, payment owed, other)

Some of the 1) are also not covered, but I believe "Purchase>Goods" is, at least here in the US

Anyone think different, OP call the Paypal Custome Service maybe?

[BrianShaw]

Just a quick comment re: two attempts I've made to settle disputes involving PayPal and fraudulent sellers. In both cases sellers offered X, I agreed to purchase X and they shipped Y. A deaf, dumb and blind person would have recognized the criminality. I provided overwhelming evidence from four impartial and expert 'witnesses' to support my irrefutable case. PayPal, being judge and jury, was of no help whatsoever. PayPal staff have been amongst the most uneducated and incompetent people with whom I have ever dealt. Period. I repeat: there was absolutely no room for even the most bizarre, drug-induced interpretation of straight-up criminal transactions. PayPal didn't see it that way.

Not trying to be argumentative or minimize your experience/opinion... but I was an expert witness for a friend's dispute. It was a matter of residual value assessment after an item was broken in transit, not a substitution of product issue. Ebay/Paypal was very straightforward in what they asked for in terms of information and proof, and then resolved the matter quickly to the satisfaction of both buyer and seller.

In another situation (my own, this time) I was dealing with a seller who offered an item that he could not send because he didn't possess it. After several email exchanges with the seller where there was no confidence that he could even get the part, I asked for a refund. He stopped replying to emails or phone calls. An ebay/paypal action was initiated for a refund and that was accomplished in less than 2 days. I don't think this guy was acting criminally, just too lax an attitude for my needs -- I couldn't wait until "whenever" to get my goods.

[MattKing]

Try this, login Paypal, click on Send Money, are there two tabs, 1) Purchase, 2) Personal (aka privé transacties)?

In the US, 2) Personal are not covered (ie Gift, cash advance, living expense, payment owed, other)

Some of the 1) are also not covered, but I believe "Purchase>Goods" is, at least here in the US

Anyone think different, OP call the Paypal Custome Service maybe?

On the Canadian site, it is made clear that the main pre-requisite is that the protection applies if the payment is sent to purchase tangible goods. Payments sent for purchasing services or IP (like music files) or just to transfer monies (like gifts) are not covered.

[sandermarijn]

Try this, login Paypal, click on Send Money, are there two tabs, 1) Purchase, 2) Personal (aka privé transacties)?

In the US, 2) Personal are not covered (ie Gift, cash advance, living expense, payment owed, other)

Some of the 1) are also not covered, but I believe "Purchase>Goods" is, at least here in the US

Anyone think different, OP call the Paypal Custome Service maybe?

Just did like you said, you're right, thanks. This means that as a seller you're protected from paypal fraud if you choose to be paid through the second tab (gift etc), if I understand the paypal terms correctly.

However, this may not mean you're free from a chargeback by the buyer's credit card company. Anybody know more about this?

About calling paypal, I've done that once, but it's full of obstacles (I seem to remember that you need some kind of code that you first have to generate on the site or something) and I doubt that the paypal employee on the other end of the line would be willing to discuss topics of fraud if I'm not currently involved in one such case myself.

Paypal must be the only company that holds my money while at the same time being almost impossible to contact (things may be different in other countries). I would never accept that from my bank or credit card company. It's amazing what these paypal people get away with: appalling service, high prices, intransparent set of rules. The only reason that I bother is that you can't get around them if you want to sell/buy (especially sell) internationally.

[sandermarijn]

Not trying to be argumentative or minimize your experience/opinion... but I was an expert witness for a friend's dispute. It was a matter of residual value assessment after an item was broken in transit, not a substitution of product issue. Ebay/Paypal was very straightforward in what they asked for in terms of information and proof, and then resolved the matter quickly to the satisfaction of both buyer and seller.

In another situation (my own, this time) I was dealing with a seller who offered an item that he could not send because he didn't possess it. After several email exchanges with the seller where there was no confidence that he could even get the part, I asked for a refund. He stopped replying to emails or phone calls. An ebay/paypal action was initiated for a refund and that was accomplished in less than 2 days. I don't think this guy was acting criminally, just too lax an attitude for my needs -- I couldn't wait until "whenever" to get my goods.

Thanks for the examples Brian, but my question is really more about paypal outside ebay.

[MattKing]

Just did like you said, you're right, thanks. This means that as a seller you're protected from paypal fraud if you choose to be paid through the second tab (gift etc), if I understand the paypal terms correctly.

I think this must be wrong - did you not mean to say that "as a seller you're NOT protected from paypal fraud if you choose to be paid through the second tab (gift etc)"

I cannot see them extending the protection if they don't get any fee for their services.

[zsas]

It's easy to call them, click on Contact (bottom of page), click Phone, then log into your account and it will generate your 'code', then call the number.

All things considered, I think Paypal is genius!

[BrianShaw]

Thanks for the examples Brian, but my question is really more about paypal outside ebay.

My examples are examples of paypal protection, whenever it is offered. One needs to be sure to specify a form of paypal transaction that has protection connected to it if one wants to be protected. Then, in my experience, the protection works well.

[sandermarijn]

However, this may not mean you're free from a chargeback by the buyer's credit card company. Anybody know more about this?

Oi, I really like quoting myself

Seriously, just to get this thread on the track I have in mind: anybody know how the credit card people enter this story? Are they capable of overruling paypal regardless of payment as gift and regardless of right or wrong (as defined by the paypal terms)?