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  1. #31
    zsas's Avatar
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    Re credit card companies being able to charge back, never had the misfortune, if one sells/buys through Paypal's terms this should be a non-issue. If you had your own business selling coffee tables and a customer disputed the quality of the table that you sold, I bet, but could be wrong, your credit processing company would draft the chargeback to the merchant account. Paypal doest seem to be different in my opinion. A seller has an agreement with the as a clearing house, they are not the one at risk, the merchant (seller) is
    Andy

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    One needs to be sure to specify a form of paypal transaction that has protection connected to it if one wants to be protected.
    The irony seems to be that the seller is protected from buyer fraud only if a form a paypal payment (gift) is chosen that excludes protection.

    It's either protection for both parties or for neither. In that case as a seller I'd prefer no protection at all. Once the money is in it's in (if it wasn't for those credit card companies?).
    Last edited by sandermarijn; 12-27-2011 at 03:32 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: bracket omission

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandermarijn View Post
    The irony seems to be that the seller is protected from buyer fraud only if a form a paypal payment (gift) is chosen that excludes protection.

    It's either protection for both parties or for neither. In that case as a seller I'd prefer no protection at all. Once the money is in it's in (if it wasn't for those credit card companies?).
    Well, that's exactly why I'm not much of a trader. There are few guarantees, and any "protection" is either limited, full of loopholes, or one-sided. That is the risk of being in the trading buisness, or trading hobby. Private party buying/selling involves a lot of trust and depends on both sides being sincere, honest, and honorable. Same with business transactions. There can be no guarantee of that, even in face-to-face situations it seems.

  4. #34

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    BTW, I've been using "Personal", "goods" when private-party buying and selling... only to find out from this thread that I should have read the Paypal TOS and known that there was no associate paypal protection. When buying I often pay via paypal with credit card, and if I have to eat the fees myself I do that in the hopes that if the transactiongoes awry I can get either paypal or the credit card company to help out. I really don't want to test that theory though because I could get a big and unpleasant surprise.

  5. #35
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    Well, that's exactly why I'm not much of a trader. There are few guarantees, and any "protection" is either limited, full of loopholes, or one-sided. That is the risk of being in the trading buisness, or trading hobby. Private party buying/selling involves a lot of trust and depends on both sides being sincere, honest, and honorable. Same with business transactions. There can be no guarantee of that, even in face-to-face situations it seems.
    I am not much of a trader either, which is exactly why I'm looking for certainties where there are none.

    Like you say, business is all about trust, just like with all other relationships between people. Hah, right forum after all

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Re credit card companies being able to charge back, never had the misfortune, ...
    I have but it was in a direct purchase situation rather than via paypal. In all situaitons I believe they treat "chargebacks" like they do fraud -- credit the cardholder and write off the balance as a loss. I never had the impression that they really tried getting that money back from the bad sellers.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandermarijn View Post
    The irony seems to be that the seller is protected from buyer fraud only if a form a paypal payment (gift) is chosen that excludes protection.
    It's either protection for both parties or for neither. In that case as a seller I'd prefer no protection at all. Once the money is in it's in (if it wasn't for those credit card companies?).
    Finally somebody get that right. I have been making that case on other threads and at LFF. There is nothing dishonest for a seller to simply request a direct payment and pay only the Paypal fee related to the direct payment and not for the often abusive buyer protection. But the righteous type have always been harping that by not going the way of the full service and fee you are defrauding Paypal - BS - IMHO, you are paying for exactly the service that both party are accepting i.e. transfer of funds from one PayPal account to another, nothing more, nothing less (foreign exchange apart..).
    It is a pity that no middle ground exists that would be equally fair to buyer and seller.
    My last sell on eBay, the buyer was threatening to put a claim for item not as described even before the lens had reached Hong Kong unless the price was further discounted. This bothered me and when the buyer put a claim I sent the emails to PayPal showing the bad faith and the only answer I got was a charge back...
    Regretfully it is not always possible to deal only with long time forum members instead of total strangers with no feed-back.

    Cheers,

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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbenac View Post
    Regretfully it is not always possible to deal only with long time forum members instead of total strangers with no feed-back.
    Even that is no guarantee.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandermarijn View Post
    The irony seems to be that the seller is protected from buyer fraud only if a form a paypal payment (gift) is chosen that excludes protection.

    It's either protection for both parties or for neither. In that case as a seller I'd prefer no protection at all. Once the money is in it's in (if it wasn't for those credit card companies?).
    Sorry, this is incorrect.

    If a buyer describes the transaction as a purchase of goods, then the transaction is eligible for seller's protection. In order to invoke that protection, the seller must ship to the buyer's confirmed (or verified) address and (for sales above $250.00 for Canada) obtain delivery confirmation.

    If the buyer describes the transaction as a gift or sale of other, non-eligible items/services, then the transaction is not eligible.

    In order to insure the buyer describes the transaction properly, it is best to send a PayPal invoice to them.

    If a seller receives a properly described payment without having issued a PayPal invoice for it, one can use PayPal to create a shipping label. In any event, the transaction details associated with the payment received notification indicate whether or not the transaction is fully or partially eligible for seller protections.

    I've done this a few times for sales through APUG. Each time the PayPal information indicates eligibility.

    The buyer protections are different.
    Matt

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    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    In order to insure the buyer describes the transaction properly, it is best to send a PayPal invoice to them.
    That, Matt, is my most significant lesson of the day.

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