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  1. #101
    David Brown's Avatar
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    Oh, Jeez. Am I gonna hafta start shooting 35mm again?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    But Thomas makes me question my belief in the superiority of larger formats over 35mm.
    Me too.

    Part of the problem IMO is with the way the word "quality" is used as "code" for "better", regardless of the constraints of the situation.

    The "quality" that any given tool imparts may be more properly described as that tool's "characteristic".

    There are real differences in the "characteristics" that different tools impart on a photo. The real question is, which "characteristics" are important and possible in a given shot or situation?

    The characteristics aren't all tech specs either.

    Holgas in my experience impart "informality" and an RB67 imparts "formality" into both subject and photographer. Both are useful and desirable characteristics and have their place and time, but they are mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by markbarendt; 10-27-2012 at 01:10 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." AnaÔs Nin

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    If it weren't for Thomas Bertilsson, I would say 35mm is fine for beginners, but serious photographers should use larger format.

    But Thomas makes me question my belief in the superiority of larger formats over 35mm......
    Larger formats got undisputed lead when You need movements or You need to hide behind a tripod or under dark cloth
    Optical performance wise, a decent RF Leitz or Zeiss lens for 135 format completely murders any of the MF/LF lenses.
    Basic optical physics.

  4. #104
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Advantages of MF over 35mm

    Certainly you CAN get results from 35mm that are close to if not equal to MF (I remain unconvinced WRT LF though) but it is, in my experience, much easier to get great results from MF. MF negatives in general are a joy to print compared to 35mm.

  5. #105
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Advantages of MF over 35mm

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    Certainly you CAN get results from 35mm that are close to if not equal to MF (I remain unconvinced WRT LF though) but it is, in my experience, much easier to get great results from MF. MF negatives in general are a joy to print compared to 35mm.
    And I enjoy printing 35mm negs more than 120, Roger. Isn't it funny how we're all so different?
    Whatever makes people happy, and what gets them the results they need, they should use. I'm just very much against a notion of better or worse. Who's to say that just because a picture has more grain it is somehow inferior to one that doesn't? Unless the approach is scientific in nature, like surveillance or something like that. But in pictorial applications, it's an entirely subjective observation, and it's based on individual taste. All I really want from anybody is an empathy of sorts to acknowledge that there are more ways than their own way to view things. That behavior breeds respect and appreciation of each other. In the art world, there are no absolutes, only creativity, which we must encourage.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #106
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    Larger formats got undisputed lead when You need movements or You need to hide behind a tripod or under dark cloth
    Optical performance wise, a decent RF Leitz or Zeiss lens for 135 format completely murders any of the MF/LF lenses.
    Basic optical physics.
    You are leaving a very important part of the equation out in order to make your point.

    The size of the "real estate" that a given scene is projected on to.

    Sure across 1.5 square inches 35mm lenses can resolve more detail.

    So what.

    When you compare the total effect that larger format systems, which have say 3, 5, 20, or 80 square inches of real estate to define the "same scene and print", medium and large format lens resolution doesn't need to match 35mm standards to markedly increase net print resolution, smoothness of transitions.

    As to hiding, I could suggest that people with small RF cameras are trying to be sneaky and hide the fact that they're even taking photos. Come to think of it that seems to be a normal selling point of the quiet shutter and small size.

    Seems a bit silly to be arguing that point don't ya think?
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." AnaÔs Nin

  7. #107
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    And I enjoy printing 35mm negs more than 120, Roger. Isn't it funny how we're all so different?
    Whatever makes people happy, and what gets them the results they need, they should use. I'm just very much against a notion of better or worse. Who's to say that just because a picture has more grain it is somehow inferior to one that doesn't? Unless the approach is scientific in nature, like surveillance or something like that. But in pictorial applications, it's an entirely subjective observation, and it's based on individual taste. All I really want from anybody is an empathy of sorts to acknowledge that there are more ways than their own way to view things. That behavior breeds respect and appreciation of each other. In the art world, there are no absolutes, only creativity, which we must encourage.
    I understand. Well I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure I understand how 35mm can be more fun to print than 120, but if it is, by all means do it. The digi crowd can't understand why I think doing darkroom work at all is fun. People are very different!

  8. #108
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    And I enjoy printing 35mm negs more than 120, Roger. Isn't it funny how we're all so different?
    Whatever makes people happy, and what gets them the results they need, they should use. I'm just very much against a notion of better or worse. Who's to say that just because a picture has more grain it is somehow inferior to one that doesn't? Unless the approach is scientific in nature, like surveillance or something like that. But in pictorial applications, it's an entirely subjective observation, and it's based on individual taste. All I really want from anybody is an empathy of sorts to acknowledge that there are more ways than their own way to view things. That behavior breeds respect and appreciation of each other. In the art world, there are no absolutes, only creativity, which we must encourage.
    I agree fully Thomas.

    I also admit to having chased a few magic bullets and things I thought were the "technical bests" in my time.

    Those experiences have certainly entertained and enlightened me in many ways.

    The first and most important lessons have been in defining what works best for me in various settings.

    A second prominent set of lessons (a subset of the first), very much has been in the social/emotional aspects of shooting; interacting with my subject, within my frame of mind/mood/intent, and with other shooters/my buddies.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." AnaÔs Nin

  9. #109
    cliveh's Avatar
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    I also enjoy printing 35mm in preference to a larger format. But it maybe because when printing 35mm Iím usually using a condenser enlarger and the process feels more intuitive that when Iím printing 6 X 6 on a diffuser. When Iím working with the diffuser, it feels more like Iím doing a task, or perhaps I just have to think more about what Iím doing.

    ďThe contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of inventionĒ

    Francis Bacon

  10. #110
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    Optical performance wise, a decent RF Leitz or Zeiss lens for 135 format completely murders any of the MF/LF lenses. Basic optical physics.
    These are, (I am lucky to be able to say because I have one of each), playing field levelers...

    As markbarendt pointed out, 4x5 film has a larger playing field. So it doesn't require as fine a lens to be level with 35mm.

    You gotta respect the photographer's choice here... I still like that I moved up to 4x5, it delivers as promised. 35mm can compare favorably to 4x5 - just use slow film and a tripod and do a good job with exposure and development. [for 11x14 silver gelatin print size].

    You can take 35mm to a different level by adding fast film and shooting fast action... I enjoy experimenting in that genre with large rangefinders... Here they don't deliver as many shots, and there are more near misses due to handling (with 35mm I can more easily capture the decisive moment). But when I land one, it's a whale.



 

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