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  1. #141
    clayne's Avatar
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    The fact that we have threads here about "what kind of reactions do you get when people see you shooting film" evidences the point I was trying to make - that a reaction anywhere from disrespect to ambivalence to respect is expected from other photographers or everyday people. Personally I'd rather they not care what medium I'm using (unless they love film and want to talk shop).

    Additionally, this thread is an exception to the typical threads around APUG. We don't sit here and regularly create digital diss threads - so I stand by my comment that "your typical analog shooter doesn't sit around and talk about how much they hate digital" and add an explicit "all the time" since it was implied. If one medium wasn't encroaching on another medium's materials then I think there would be a heck of a lot less tension between the two camps.

    Of course I hate digital but I don't need to remind everyone here of it. I use it when it's appropriate for the particular job. When the particular job is anything artistic or serious in approach, I don't even consider it. Even if I wanted to, I don't have a digital camera other than a phone.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  2. #142
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    If one medium wasn't encroaching on another medium's materials then I think there would be a heck of a lot less tension between the two camps.
    For better or worse, this goes directly to the heart of the issue.

    To be constantly reminded that yet another film product, another piece of darkroom equipment, another camera manufacturer are going bust because, well, don't you film idiots realize that digital imaging technology has rendered everything you value, and use, and need, obsolete? What's wrong with you? Can't you see the obvious? Can't you read the writing on the wall. Everyone else can.

    No?

    Well then, today is your lucky day. Because we're here to constantly remind you of those obvious facts. Over and over. Again and again. Until you scream for mercy. And then ask you why you're screaming. What's wrong with you? Why are you so upset? It's because technology has passed you by, isn't it? Well, there are reasons for that, you know. Listen up. Let us tell you about them.

    Arrggghhhh!!! Give it a rest. Please!!

    It never seems to dawn on these people that if we didn't already know those obvious facts, we wouldn't already be here. We are here precisely because we know those facts. This place itself exists and is here for precisely the same reason.

    Truth be told, we probably knew those facts long before you did, since we were the ones witnessing the loss of equipment and materials. The term I use with my wife is a "distressed purchase." It means I have to buy something, usually expensive, right NOW, regardless of whether I can afford it or not. Because if I don't, it's about to go out of production. Forever.

    I bought my Saunders easel that way. And my seventeen 8x10 Fidelity film holders. And my 180mm f/2.8 ED Nikkor. And my Kodachrome. And now my Provia 400 120 rolls. I could name a dozen others.

    So, we know what is going on, OK? We get it. We are cognizant. We are situationally aware. We are not the dullest knives in the kitchen. We didn't just fall off the turnip truck. So enough already.

    You all know who you are. And for all of this you continue to receive more and more of those little Alfred Hitchcock awards. As gentle reminders to please stop. And you're probably not even situationally aware enough to realize why you're getting them...

    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 09-11-2013 at 03:58 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #143

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    i don't really have trouble buying anything i need to use
    or have needed to use over the last 10 or 15 years.
    film or paper or chemistry, and sadly it was long before
    computerized cameras appeared on the scene that films and papers
    and equipment became scarce or obsolete or whatever ...
    i worked for someone who had an old 5x7 solar enlarger
    it was a huge sort of beast and made beautiful enlargements.
    unfortunately in around 1980 bulbs for it stopped being produced ...
    they were big incandescent bulbs with a long long neck ... the lady i worked for
    hoarded them by calling every shop within 100 miles ( or so she said ) and buying all their stock.
    i only learned this because she said " hey john pull that box out i want to show you something"
    and i looked at maybe 50 of these bulbs all stacked in a huge box ..
    she also had tray rockers ... steel flat, with a cam/rotating rod. she bought it in the 1940s
    and i have never seen anything like it before or since ....
    i've been searching for cans of GAF UNIVERSAL DEVELOPER for nearly 20 years, they haven't been made since the 70s ...
    but the 20year old can that was holding up a window in a studio i rented .. a can that went through probably 15 harsh winters
    and 120degree summers still mixed the best 5 gallons of any developer i have ever used, or at least "store bought developer"
    and while people are so sad with the advent of digital "stuff" you only read it in digital beat down threads, otherwise
    all i read about here on apug is how they bought an enlarger for 15$ and only a few years ago cost 1000.00, or a whole
    professional photolab's darkroom was in the dumpster for the taking, or the nikon brag thread
    where people can now afford to have 500 nikon cameras and accessories because they are finally affordable.
    i've gotten some good deals, but they haven't been recent since some guy in nevada has spread such good press
    on what used to be lenses headed for the dump. at least i know i'll get a good deal when i sell my 5 or 10dollar lenses
    purchased before the "brass and glass gold rush" because there are always and will always be people looking for a silver bullet ...
    heck, lomo is remanufacturing a petzval lens, lens baby has made a imagon lens ... these are things that WERE obsolete
    and out of production or scarce but they have come back to haunt us through cheezy misuse and bad photography in both mediums ...
    and at least now people who want specialty film sizes don't have to get orders for $15,000 of film ( a pallet ) through 1 manufacturer
    they can fill their fridge once a year when ilford does their boutique size cut+run ..
    as i said previously in a thread ( was it this one? ) im not a pessimistic or an optimist but a realist i guess
    and while there is all sorts of bad-stuff that happened because fewer people use film cameras than in 1980, the sun hasn't set
    and there is still plenty of film and paper and equipment &c to last beyond my lifetime.

    its too bad if someone googles " is film superior" they will get a thread full of posts complaining about digital, instead of bragging how
    film might or might not be a better medium ...

    YMMV
    Last edited by jnanian; 09-11-2013 at 07:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #144
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i am not really sure ken
    i don't really have trouble buying anything i need to use
    or have needed to use over the last 10 or 15 years.
    film or paper or chemistry, and sadly it was long before
    computerized cameras appeared on the scene that films and papers
    and equipment became scarce or obsolete or whatever ...
    i worked for someone who had an old 5x7 solar enlarger
    it was a huge sort of beast and made beautiful enlargements.
    unfortunately in around 1980 bulbs for it stopped being produced ...
    they were big incandescent bulbs with a long long neck ... the lady i worked for
    hoarded them by calling every shop within 100 miles ( or so she said ) and buying all their stock.
    she also had tray rockers ... steel flat, with a cam and rotating rod. she bought it in the 1940s
    and i have never seen anything like it since .... i've been searching for cans of GAF UNIVERSAL DEVELOPER
    for nearly 20 years, they haven't been made since the 70s ...
    and while people are so sad with the advent of digital "stuff" all i read about here on apug
    is how they bought an enlarger for 15$ and only a few years ago cost 1000.00, or the nikon brag thread
    where people can now afford to have 500 nikon cameras and accessories because they are finally affordable.
    i've gotten some good deals, but they haven't been recent since some guy in nevada has spread such good press
    on what used to be lenses headed for the dump. but i know i'll get a good deal when i sell my 5 or 10dollar lenses
    purchased before the brass and glass rush because there are always and will always be people looking for a silver bullet ...
    heck, lomo is remanufacturing a petzval lens, lens baby has made a imagon lens ... these are things that WERE obsolete
    and out of production or scarce but they have come back to haunt us through cheezy misuse and bad photography in both mediums ...

    YMMV
    Yes, Master J..the other side of the coin...or looking at a glass half full

    Things were indeed disappearing well before the advent of digital photography but of course the bitching was done around a dinner table (maybe) and not paraded incessantly on internet forums. Things change, and there is no stopping that. I guess I feel lucky that there is digital so I can still make photogravures...but maybe the reason why I have to use a hybrid process is because of digital..what came first..the chicken or the egg?

    As far as I am concerned, I am not going to let suicidal thoughts in my head because Agfa Brovira or Panatomic X are no longer available, or constantly debate in my head whether I should ever use a digital camera or not. Okay, we've established that film (may be) superior for archival purposes, but right now, I am more concerned with finding something compelling to photograph, (mostly with film and sometimes digital) making a good print, exhibiting, finding buyers and have lots of fun in the process. Life's way too short to be miserable and whine about trivial stuff.

  5. #145
    one90guy's Avatar
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    Digital has made great film cameras affordable for me and my first love will always be B/W film. But I now use digital also and my digital has helped me to maker photos with film. Also digital for me is great when the grandchildren are visiting. I think they are both great and each are capable of making art or snap shots.

    David
    “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.”
    ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

  6. #146
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Don't miss the obvious point of my post. It's really not all about the fact that some stuff is no longer available...

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  7. #147
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Don't miss the obvious point of my post. It's really not all about the fact that some stuff is no longer available...

    Ken

    Hi Ken,

    Not sure if that is in response to my post, but yes, I certainly did get your point. It's the constant reminders, the whining, complaining, and yes, even comparing. Time to let it go already. It is what it is.

  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post

    As far as I am concerned, I am not going to let suicidal thoughts in my head because Agfa Brovira or Panatomic X are no longer available, or constantly debate in my head whether I should ever use a digital camera or not. Okay, we've established that film (may be) superior for archival purposes, but right now, I am more concerned with finding something compelling to photograph, (mostly with film and sometimes digital) making a good print, exhibiting, finding buyers and have lots of fun in the process. Life's way too short to be miserable and whine about trivial stuff.
    Amen!

    Right now I'm suffering from shingles. All I care about is getting well again so I can go out and shoot!

  9. #149
    Paul Glover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    For better or worse, this goes directly to the heart of the issue.

    To be constantly reminded that yet another film product, another piece of darkroom equipment, another camera manufacturer are going bust because, well, don't you film idiots realize that digital imaging technology has rendered everything you value, and use, and need, obsolete? What's wrong with you? Can't you see the obvious? Can't you read the writing on the wall. Everyone else can.

    No?
    This is the thing.

    I don't care whether someone shoots film or digital, or both, or neither. I don't begrudge anyone else of their choice, but I do ask that my choices be respected in kind.

    I *do* care when someone declares that my choice is not valid because it's not the same as theirs. These are the people who respond to every story about Kodak, every article exploring film with a "what, film is still not dead? WTF? Just shoot digital like I do.", who react with entirely undisguised glee and triumph when bad news shows up. I don't get these people at all. I don't get why they seem so deeply emotionally invested in film going away for good and view every mention of it as an opportunity to belittle anyone who still cares about it. It's like the very existence of film and people who shoot it is a personal affront to them, a middle finger raised at their own obviously "much better" way of doing things, which everyone should do because they say so.

    Of course these are the same people who will argue endlessly online over miniscule differences in DSLR performance and go to war over brand choice, or declare loudly that "no professional would ever...". I've come to the conclusion that they are best ignored since they're likely too busy defending their choices to ever actually exercise them.

  10. #150

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    I've been shooting film since 1977 and digital since the late 90's. I still shoot both, and exhibit & sell work from both. I used to be a subscriber to Apug.. enjoyed the community. I still read posts, and find the information incredibly useful. I also frequent most other forums, and Film bashing, for the most part, disappeared long ago (ok.. there may still be some in dpreview, but i'd swear that forum is inhabited entirely by 14 year old boys with personality disorders.. ).

    I've never once felt my film work belittled by anyone in the digital realm...ever. This was the only place I ever felt that, because of a choice of capture, my work was, frankly, garbage (and in most cases, without ever having it seen to be judged). If respect is expected.. it has to be a two way street. Paul.. your comment could be equally appropriate if you substitute film for digital (that's not to imply that you don't respect work for works sake.. )

    There are probably more photographers that shoot both film and digital, than just film. There's a lot of experience that gets lost once someone decides that their digital work might have artistic merit, and that work, and the photographer, become marginalized here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Glover View Post
    This is the thing.

    I don't care whether someone shoots film or digital, or both, or neither. I don't begrudge anyone else of their choice, but I do ask that my choices be respected in kind.

    I *do* care when someone declares that my choice is not valid because it's not the same as theirs. These are the people who respond to every story about Kodak, every article exploring film with a "what, film is still not dead? WTF? Just shoot digital like I do.", who react with entirely undisguised glee and triumph when bad news shows up. I don't get these people at all. I don't get why they seem so deeply emotionally invested in film going away for good and view every mention of it as an opportunity to belittle anyone who still cares about it. It's like the very existence of film and people who shoot it is a personal affront to them, a middle finger raised at their own obviously "much better" way of doing things, which everyone should do because they say so.

    Of course these are the same people who will argue endlessly online over miniscule differences in DSLR performance and go to war over brand choice, or declare loudly that "no professional would ever...". I've come to the conclusion that they are best ignored since they're likely too busy defending their choices to ever actually exercise them.



 

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