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  1. #151
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimcollum View Post
    I've been shooting film since 1977 and digital since the late 90's. I still shoot both, and exhibit & sell work from both. I used to be a subscriber to Apug.. enjoyed the community. I still read posts, and find the information incredibly useful. I also frequent most other forums, and Film bashing, for the most part, disappeared long ago (ok.. there may still be some in dpreview, but i'd swear that forum is inhabited entirely by 14 year old boys with personality disorders.. ).

    I've never once felt my film work belittled by anyone in the digital realm...ever. This was the only place I ever felt that, because of a choice of capture, my work was, frankly, garbage (and in most cases, without ever having it seen to be judged). If respect is expected.. it has to be a two way street. Paul.. your comment could be equally appropriate if you substitute film for digital (that's not to imply that you don't respect work for works sake.. )

    There are probably more photographers that shoot both film and digital, than just film. There's a lot of experience that gets lost once someone decides that their digital work might have artistic merit, and that work, and the photographer, become marginalized here.
    Well, this is APUG after all and it is to be expected. Many esteemed contributors to this community have been lost over the years exactly because of that. Yes, it is the Analog Photography User Group, but there is a difference between enjoying the look of film, extolling its virtues, longing for the past, etc, and dealing with absolutes and constant comparisons which invariably lead to useless confrontations (film is better/digital is garbage arguments), every time a thread like this appears. Having said that, usually those fruitless arguments come from those who have absolutely nothing to show for it (and I mean no compelling work to speak of). A lot of those same people would benefit from a gigantic piece of humble pie while learning how to walk the talk. Sounds blunt but that's how I see it.

  2. #152
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    Not sure if that is in response to my post, but yes, I certainly did get your point. It's the constant reminders, the whining, complaining, and yes, even comparing. Time to let it go already. It is what it is.
    Not you, Max. Yours is the example I wish many of the others could take. You seem to quietly and effectively use the tools that simply give you the results seek. Then you positively participate in the community by often sharing those results in the galleries. And pass along helpful comments to others in those same galleries, or in other threads.

    What you don't do is constantly beat others over the head with your perceived superiority of the tools you chose. Regardless of which side those tools evolved from. Or incessantly point out what has happened in the film-based marketplace over the last decade, as if the rest of us hadn't already seen it for ourselves. Or worse, saw it but didn't—or couldn't—understand it. Sheesh.

    No, the ones I'm referring to are the ones who are here, and welcomed, but who never post any photographs, never participate in any of the print exchanges, never contribute to the analog side of discussions, don't occasionally stop by to welcome a newcomer, never share when they have found a neat film camera or darkroom trick, don't offer their assistance to other members, or do much of anything else.

    All they seem to want to do is to remind us, again and again and again, directly or indirectly, how backward we really are. They're open-minded about it, of course, and so can accept our backwardness with grace. But they just want to make certain we know, that they know, that we have been left behind technologically. And as well, by inference, that they have not.

    Trust me. I have not been left behind technologically. Nor have you. Nor have most of the others here. But it does get frustrating and tiresome hearing over and over and over again about how we, in fact, have been.

    Does it ever occur to these individuals to just use whatever technology they want to use, then let the others choose to use what they want to use, then respect the charter here and politely limit the discussions of those choices as appropriate?

    Sometimes I do wonder if concentrating so much film-based expertise in one place was such a good idea. Often it seems that in doing so all that has been accomplished was to provide a target-rich environment. People with nothing better to do can then join up just to amuse themselves by shooting the fish in the barrel.

    And I say again, you guys know who you are...

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #153
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Not you, Max. Yours is the example I wish many of the others could take. You seem to quietly and effectively use the tools that simply give you the results seek. Then you positively participate in the community by often sharing those results in the galleries. And pass along helpful comments to others in those same galleries, or in other threads.

    What you don't do is constantly beat others over the head with your perceived superiority of the tools you chose. Regardless of which side those tools evolved from. Or incessantly point out what has happened in the film-based marketplace over the last decade, as if the rest of us hadn't already seen it for ourselves. Or worse, saw it but didn't—or couldn't—understand it. Sheesh.

    No, the ones I'm referring to are the ones who are here, and welcomed, but who never post any photographs, never participate in any of the print exchanges, never contribute to the analog side of discussions, don't occasionally stop by to welcome a newcomer, never share when they have found a neat film camera or darkroom trick, don't offer their assistance to other members, or do much of anything else.

    All they seem to want to do is to remind us, again and again and again, directly or indirectly, how backward we really are. They're open-minded about it, of course, and so can accept our backwardness with grace. But they just want to make certain we know, that they know, that we have been left behind technologically. And as well, by inference, that they have not.

    Trust me. I have not been left behind technologically. Nor have you. Nor have most of the others here. But it does get frustrating and tiresome hearing over and over and over again about how we, in fact, have been.

    Does it ever occur to these individuals to just use whatever technology they want to use, then let the others choose to use what they want to use, then respect the charter here and politely limit the discussions of those choices as appropriate?

    Sometimes I do wonder if concentrating so much film-based expertise in one place was such a good idea. Often it seems that in doing so all that has been accomplished was to provide a target-rich environment. People with nothing better to do can then join up just to amuse themselves by shooting the fish in the barrel.

    And I say again, you guys know who you are...

    Ken
    Ha yes, Ken, I could not have said it better and I fully agree with every word you've written. Before I leave this fun thread I do want to make a real-life point, based on facts, to really put it in perspective for the guys you are referring to: I have a Photogravure show hanging at The Lionheart Gallery since July 27th and until November 1st and I must have talked to well over 100 people at this point, and sold quite a few prints. Not ONE SINGLE PERSON (and I'm talking about a consumer/buyer/collector) asked ONE SINGLE QUESTION about whether the original image was captured on film or by a sensor. NOT ONE. In fact, few, if any had any idea of what a Photogravure is, let alone the fact that I'm making digital positives for the process. They loved the images, they loved the prints, they liked my work. Just as simple as that. But, three (3) people did ask if I was still shooting film..and guess what? They were photographers of course. Just curious, they didn't argue, they thought it was great, were fun to talk to...and didn't buy anything

    Things really have to be put in perspective because at the end of the day, few really care. Make the choice, enjoy the ride, live and let live, make good art and don't forget to have fun and smile

  4. #154
    Paul Glover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimcollum View Post
    I also frequent most other forums, and Film bashing, for the most part, disappeared long ago (ok.. there may still be some in dpreview, but i'd swear that forum is inhabited entirely by 14 year old boys with personality disorders.. ).
    Funny thing there: when I search for information about film-related topics, I sometimes find threads on DPR that are actively, and *positively*, discussing film and film equipment. That came as something of a shock the first time it happened.

    I'm thinking more about mainstream and tech site articles which happen to discuss film, or the industry, and invariably some wise-ass will make a remark. When Kodak announced bankruptcy, there were a great many "oh, now film is dead" comments. Now I suspect those to be ignorance rather than malice. People who don't understand bankruptcy and who honestly believe that Kodak make all film. I truly believe the worst of the "film drools digital rules" crowd have moved on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimcollum View Post
    I've never once felt my film work belittled by anyone in the digital realm...ever. This was the only place I ever felt that, because of a choice of capture, my work was, frankly, garbage (and in most cases, without ever having it seen to be judged). If respect is expected.. it has to be a two way street. Paul.. your comment could be equally appropriate if you substitute film for digital (that's not to imply that you don't respect work for works sake.. )
    Yes, I respect work for what it is and not how it came to be; like I said, "respect in kind". I agree it absolutely MUST be a 2-way street. Others apparently don't, you could indeed turn my statement around to represent film shooters who disregard all digital just because it's digital, not only would it ring true, but it would describe some of the comments preceding it in this very thread.

  5. #155

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    H'mm My colour negs taken in the 1960's the colours have only faded slightly and easily improved in Photoshop. For slide film:- Kodachrome is still excellent but Perutz has faded badly and Agfa only slightly.

  6. #156

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    wow! long thread

    I confess to not having read all 16 pages so please forgive if my comments are redundant.
    My appreciation for film photography increased significantly when I started going thru my fathers negatives from the 1950s and 1960s when he and my mother first moved to Japan. It was fascinating, and I was very impressed with the image quality in many cases. He started with a 6x9 camera of some sort and then moved to a 6x6 TLR for most of the next ten years. He started to dabble in 35mm in the mid-fifties but still did the majority on 6x6. Some time in the mid-sixties he switched mostly to color 35mm negatives and that is where the image quality takes a real dive. The negatives are often faded badly (almost exclusively Japanese emulsions) and just aren't much fun to work with.
    Pentax 67ii, Fuji GF670, Mamiya 6, Pentax 645N
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  7. #157

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    It's good to remember in this discussion that a negative and a print are real. They exist in the real world as an image, whereas a digital file is not a real image; it's a real digital file. It WILL corrupt, become unreadable, show some sign of deterioration over time because it is not immune to that. Nothing is, not you, not me, nor the neg or the print. All things WILL die, it's only a question of time. But a somewhat deteriorated neg or print is still viewable, and can be brought back to it's original glory if it hasn't gone too far. Not true for the digital file. If it gets to the point where it won't open, bye bye.

    To me, the greatest thing about film is that it looks better than digital, sometimes by a considerable margin. Think about it. You never see a film maker crowing that it's film looks as good as digital, but companies are always going on and on about how their digital software can "emulate" different films.

    I don't worry at all about what happens if a hurricane (live in Florida) hits and all my work disappears, either the files or the negs/prints. I worry about ME disappearing, and the cat and ol lady. That's my priorities. I can always make another photograph, but this life is all I have.

  8. #158
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momus View Post
    I don't worry at all about what happens if a hurricane (live in Florida) hits and all my work disappears, either the files or the negs/prints. I worry about ME disappearing, and the cat and ol lady. That's my priorities.

    Just a suggestion: don't show this to the "ol lady" - she may not like that she is third on the list.

    The cat will probably not care where the cat is on the list, because he/she is a cat.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  9. #159
    Mark Feldstein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momus View Post
    It's good to remember in this discussion that a negative and a print are real. They exist in the real world as an image, whereas a digital file is not a real image; it's a real digital file. It WILL corrupt, become unreadable, show some sign of deterioration over time because it is not immune to that. Nothing is, not you, not me, nor the neg or the print. All things WILL die, it's only a question of time. But a somewhat deteriorated neg or print is still viewable, and can be brought back to it's original glory if it hasn't gone too far. Not true for the digital file. If it gets to the point where it won't open, bye bye.

    To me, the greatest thing about film is that it looks better than digital, sometimes by a considerable margin. Think about it. You never see a film maker crowing that it's film looks as good as digital, but companies are always going on and on about how their digital software can "emulate" different films.

    I don't worry at all about what happens if a hurricane (live in Florida) hits and all my work disappears, either the files or the negs/prints. I worry about ME disappearing, and the cat and ol lady. That's my priorities. I can always make another photograph, but this life is all I have.
    Thanks ! I think that's very well said.
    Mark
    _________________________________
    Without guys like John Coltrane, Count Basie and Duke Ellington, life....would be meaningless.

  10. #160

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    I recently came across a box of photos that my parents took years ago. It made me wonder if we'll have anything to leave for our future generations. I hope so. Or maybe it won't matter.

    I suppose there will be photo CDs and DVDs that will still be readable. Or not. And perhaps we'll come across a hard drive that is full of images. If you notice, they aren't even called photos, but images. Maybe it's the same thing. Maybe it isn't.



 

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