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  1. #11
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momus View Post
    Yep, film is very archival. The one caveat is that it's archival if you shoot "real" B&W film. I was rummaging through a big box of photos and negs from 12 years ago and had a very unpleasant surprise. Most of what I was shooting back then was either color film or that C41 B&W stuff. The negs had faded so much I had to throw them away. Ditto for the cheap prints Walgreens had made for me. Now I shoot nothing but Tri-X and print my work on fiber paper, so no more of that nonsense.
    Sounds like bad processing or abysmal storage, or both. My stuff has gotten no special storage, and I've usually lived in hot areas with no air conditioning. But the other day I found some negatives I took in July 1973 with a 126 Instamatic, and they look great. The prints look fine, too. Looks like ol' Fotomat did a good job, because I have some later 70's prints from some other company that are yellowed. I also have some negatives and prints from Lincoln Color Labs from 1974 that still look good.
    In 1980-1982, my mother got lots of reprints from negatives taken from 1953 to 1959, and they came out nice and are still nice. I recently looked at the negatives, and they still look good, too. There might be some fading, but if it is it's not severe.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  2. #12
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    Even if, in theory, your digital files (be they cloud based or not) will be perpetually accessible, there are a thousand human factors that can get in the way. In my daughter's case, she admitted that she couldn't even recall her MySpace user name, and she no longer has the email address she had at the time, so password recovery is probably not possible.
    A darn good point, that.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  3. #13
    JohnRichard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    I was having a conversation with my oldest daughter over the weekend. She is a young mother with two little kids. All of her photos are digital. I highly encouraged her to get prints made and put them in albums.

    "Its ok...I have everything on Facebook and that's secure" she said.

    "Can you still log in to your MySpace account?" I asked.

    Point taken.

    Even if, in theory, your digital files (be they cloud based or not) will be perpetually accessible, there are a thousand human factors that can get in the way. In my daughter's case, she admitted that she couldn't even recall her MySpace user name, and she no longer has the email address she had at the time, so password recovery is probably not possible.

    Print. Your. Pictures!
    The Google Machine will not last forever.

    I took over the upkeep of my grandmothers photo albums some years ago. She stopped in about 1995 or so because no one wanted prints.
    She smiles every time I bring her future proof prints to put in a new album. We now have over 40 years of albums complete.
    - J. Richard
    4x5 Speed Graphic, Looking for another 8x10.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    I was having a conversation with my oldest daughter over the weekend. She is a young mother with two little kids. All of her photos are digital. I highly encouraged her to get prints made and put them in albums.

    "Its ok...I have everything on Facebook and that's secure" she said.

    "Can you still log in to your MySpace account?" I asked.

    Point taken.

    Even if, in theory, your digital files (be they cloud based or not) will be perpetually accessible, there are a thousand human factors that can get in the way. In my daughter's case, she admitted that she couldn't even recall her MySpace user name, and she no longer has the email address she had at the time, so password recovery is probably not possible.

    Print. Your. Pictures!
    Completely agreed! An acquittance told me something similar about printing and he mentioned it's too expensive, no one does it, all just goes to Facebook.
    It lead me to researching the printing market and revived my interest. I happen to shoot and not print much (in both media).
    For less than a drink at certain bars, or a meal; one can get 100 4x6" prints. Quite worth it. Other thing is that it takes effort...

    Both media are reliable in their own ways, only is that it needs a certain type of effort to keep well.

    I found Ron's post on Photo.net about C41 fading. It is an interesting read, here it is: http://photo.net/film-and-processing...0a8CD?start=10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Andrews Mar 12, 2012; 08:16 p.m.
    The long term stability of color negative materials is questionable. Fortunately, faded negatives are not hard to correct when scanning.

    First we need to look at the test methods the Henry Wilhelm discusses in the link that John Shriver provided. IMHO, the tables that report the "Days necessary for a 20% loss in the least stable image dye" are worse than worthless. They are highly misleading. They only thing they are good for is predicting the fading at 144 F (or whatever temperature used in a specific test). The results that are highly useful are the "Estimated Years of Dark Storage for 20% Loss of Least Stable Image Dye". See the tables on pages 202 and 203. For these predictions, the film samples were subjected to a variety of high temperature treatments. The dye fade rates are extrapolated back to room temperature. These tests aren't perfect, but there is a huge body of testing that establishes these predictions as the best we know how to do.

    Results: The problem with C-41 materials is nearly always the yellow dye. Kodak C-41 films are typically predicted to last 35 to 65 years under these conditions. By comparison, Kodachrome is predicted to last 185 years while Ektachrome is predicted to last 220 years.
    John, your just reminded me about letter writing; Really few people do written correspondence (thinking young'uns). A british ladyfriend of my mom usually writes and told me to not worry about replying as she expects no one to do it.

  5. #15
    JohnRichard's Avatar
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    I quite often want to write people letters, however I agree; it takes too much precious facebook time to find a pen and write someone a letter.
    - J. Richard
    4x5 Speed Graphic, Looking for another 8x10.

  6. #16

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    Digital data storage is one of the under-exposed (pun intended) topics of digital media. It's not news that magnetic media will suffer dropouts. It happened with tape, and it can happen with hard drives. Usually, I hear of hard drives dying due to other issues, bad sectors, etc, but there is a solution, and it takes a bit of planning.

    I have 2 copies of everything, on-site and off, that I constantly migrate forward onto new hardware every year. No, I don't sample every file to ensure that there is no corruption loss, but I do sample a meaningful percentage.

    So, I budget an extra $1k every year for storage, and I update the media with newer, usually larger, devices (hard drives currently). I don't use or rely on cloud services, because really, I have almost 2tb of data and that will just never make it to or from any cloud service without additional costs.

    I'd rather have digital color stored correctly than forcing myself to only shoot black and white film. (Note, I still shoot a lot of 4x5 C-41).

  7. #17
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    Digital files, as in stored on a hard drive, cloud, viewed on a screen, in a browser, social networks, etc, are essentially worthless and prone to eventually disappear. Anyone really dedicated should at the very least get serious about printing those files for some chance at archival. I have been shooting a bit of digital lately but it is for a photogravure project so for every image there is a digital positive and, more importantly, a copper plate from which beautiful prints are produced that will outlast me and my children. This is the ONLY way I can justify using a digital camera for some of my work. Film is and will always be king.

  8. #18
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    Film has a physical integrity. I rest my case.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  9. #19

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    Hopefully the latest C41 B&W film such as XP2+ has vastly superior archival properties to the earlier versions such as XP1 and the latest C41 colour neg film range is a vast improvement on say early 1970s colour neg.

    I cannot comment on the longevity of XP2+. It is maybe too soon for anyone to comment until at least another 20 years have passed but I have first hand experience of early 1970s colour negs and some have begun to serious deteriorate whereas I have traditional B&W negs going back to the early 1950s which produce prints as good as the day the negs were first processed.

    pentaxuser

  10. #20
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Regular B&W will always be best for longevity (as long as the film base holds up).
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

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