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  1. #31
    PeterB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingWaves View Post
    Peter, I just posted on your photonet post regarding this. Your chrome shim looks like factory. The black one looks suspect, that is one thick a** shim! Something is amiss, I know the first thing I would do is do a test without that black shim. The spring lock being off by large amount still troubles me. Show a few shot where that was and how you fixed it.
    Christiaan
    The above quote is from here as I am consolidating my cross posts to this thread.

    Thanks Christiaan. I'll try removing the black shim on the viewing lens.

    When I take the front element off the taking lens there is what looks like a brass shim screwed into the female thread of the remainder of the lens. Are you suggesting to remove or swap that to the viewing lens ?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the small steel spacer I place under the spring to stop it wobbling back and forth by about 0.7mm
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the opposite end of the spring showing a small bump I noticed on the main body.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    When the lens plate is resting on the body and the spring is totally off I can rock the plate back and forth by a tiny amount, perhaps 0.2mm, so it seems pretty flat to me. Once the spring and my steel spacer is in place I can't rock it at all.

  2. #32
    PeterB's Avatar
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    Problem solved !

    I think I've finally solved the problems causing a discrepancy between the viewing screen and film plane focus

    The top of the lens plate needed to be tilted away from the body so that the plate had no gap between it and the retaining spring. Previously I was pushing it flat against the body with a spacer btwn the spring and the plate, that was the wrong direction. The height of the spacer plus adhesive (black tack) is 0.6mm.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have confirmed that both lenses now focus together for distances of 0.6m, 3m and infinity.

    Another way to give similar results would be to add another 0.6mm shim under the viewing lens. The current solution provides a tilt, while a lens shim would provide a planar offset. At least the solution I used also addresses my concurrent problem of the top retaining spring not touching the lens plate.

    In response to Christiaan's suggestion to swap or remove the thicker shim, firstly it was not possible to swap them because they are keyed to fit each lens specifically using the position of the head of a very small screw. Secondly when I removed the 0.4mm shim from the viewing lens, it made the focus discrepancy worse. This is when I realised that I could fix the spring issue in the manner described above.
    I thought I might have to adjust the focus of the front element of the taking lens at infinity with the distance scale set there too, but it now appears I don't have to.

    I suspect that the repeatability issue I had (making it harder to diagnose the real problem) was that the tracing paper I was using for a lens plane viewing screen wasn't taut enough at times since I was manually arming the shutter and not winding on the tracing paper to both tighten it and arm the shutter. To solve that problem I went back to using the following screen in the film gate comprising perspex sheet with some translucent tape on the lens side (e.g. Scotch magic tape).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    BTW speaking of non-flat film causing focus problems, check out the posts about film bulge here. (the word "bulge" should be highlighted)
    Last edited by PeterB; 01-26-2012 at 05:49 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #33

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    That makes me think that the lens panel is not plane parallel to the film plane. But if the adjustment works, I'd live with it.

    Graham
    I feel, therefore I photograph.

  4. #34
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    I finally received the repair manual for the C330f. It only has two sections relating to adjustment of the focus. The first ensures the Lens Guide is parallel to the film plane, the second ensures the bellows extends the same distance when focusing through the viewing screen or at the film plane.
    I'm attemting to follow the first section. refer to the page 7 attached.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    It isn't clear to me how to remove the focussing knobs or camera's side covers to adjust the guide plate at step 6-1.B.c and fig 18.

    Can any C330f owners tell me how I can remove the knobs and side covers ?
    The service manual is light on details and doesn't even mention that.

    BTW instead of using a Dial Gauge, I opted for two steel rulers (see Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	45844. The horizontally fixed one has been levelled and held in place with a vice. I tried using some vernier calipers rather than a 2nd steel ruler but for some reason I wasn't getting sufficiently repeatable results.

    I also need to fabricate a small raised block to place the camera on (marked F-1 in figure 17). I think F-1 rests on the film rails. When the camera's door is open, the rear external edges of the body are not parallel with the front which is why the camera must be supported by the film rails resting on a special block.

    thanks
    Peter

  5. #35
    PeterB's Avatar
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    I realised that the exploded views in the rear of the manual are to be used to guide one in disassembling this camera. The leatherette side skins must be peeled off to reveal the first layer of screws. This is a shame as I will have to glue it back on again. Anyway at least I am making progress.
    I also will find an Outside Calliper http://goo.gl/eYKx1 or large micrometer to measure the parallelism to save me locating a very flat block to rest the film gate on.

  6. #36
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    I got one side panel off. Some screws are really hard to remove, so off to my local electronics store tomorrow to get a precision PH screwdriver with a fat handle so I can exert lots of torque. Tip needs to be hardened to prevent it shearing off like the cheap one did last night.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #37
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    Camera front is NOT parallel to the film plane

    Update. I decided to purchase a dial gauge and make my own stand for it. Measurements with it confirmed that the front of the camera (when lenses removed) is NOT parallel to the film plane. The top of the viewing lens receptacle is 0.6mm closer to the film plane than the bottom of the taking lens receptacle. I placed a very flat block of wood 62mm x 62mm x (25+/-0.1)mm against the film gate touching the same rails the film would. This wood block then rested on the flat work table and mimicked the setup in the service manual above.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This narrowed the problem down to the camera body rather than the lens board/panel.

    Now I have to continue trying to remove 3 stubborn screws as shown a few posts back in the relevant page of of the service manual I posted. I have already sheared the heads off two precision screw drivers, one supposedly made from Chrome Vanadium. I have since put some drops of penetrating oil around the screws to try and loosen them. I'm now using precision screwdrivers with hardened tips from Stanley.

  8. #38

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    I think the OP needs a different focusing screen, or needs to shim the focusing screen.

    Firstly, you're not attacking the problem by addressing/eliminating the simplest, or most common area that causes focusing problems, and that is usually the focusing screen..

    Rack the lens board/bellows to get the taking lens in focus on the film plane, then shim the focusing screen for viewing lens focus.
    If you haven't already lost shims from behind the front elements of the lens, put the lens back together and leave it alone.

    You can use "Scotch Tape," spread across the film plane, (like lap-siding on a house), to imitate a ground glass for focusing the taking lens.

  9. #39
    PeterB's Avatar
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    Marc, are you replying to Sully75 or myself?
    Peter.

  10. #40
    PeterB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc B. View Post
    I think the OP needs a different focusing screen, or needs to shim the focusing screen. Firstly, you're not attacking the problem by addressing/eliminating the simplest, or most common area that causes focusing problems, and that is usually the focusing screen.
    Hi Marc, assuming your reply was directed to me, here are my thoughts.


    The Mamiya C330f service manual contains only two sections pertaining to adjusting the focus.
    1. The first section seeks to ensure the front of the camera is parallel to the film plane.
    2. The second section ensures the distances travelled by the light rays (from taking lens to film and from viewing lens to view screen) are the same. It works off your assumption but instead of using shims for the focussing screen (as was the case with earlier models) it gets one to adjust the height of the screen by screwing up or down three posts in the camera.
    Now I have proven that my camera has problem number 1. See photos of the dial gauge I posted yesterday in this thread for evidence. Why would I now try and solve that parallelism problem by moving the viewing screen up and down when the makers of the camera instruct us to solve it a different way ? (this way detailed here from my post #35 in this thread)

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