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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Dude, Google is your friend. There's a crapload of information out there on nearly all MF cameras made over the past 30 years from the major brands. Otherwise, you'll wear out your welcome quick with questions you could probably go some distance answering on your own. The "I've got 5 minutes, tell me all you know about X" approach won't get you far, OK?
    Dude, I have used Google. Thanks. I actually have been lurking on this site for a while and have searched some even on APUG. I registered because I couldn't find everything out there on what I was looking for in terms of info. If you're going to mention some concept, and the recipient of your message doesn't understand, you should be able to explain yourself or give a link to a place where information can be gathered. Otherwise, you shouldn't be mentioning it because you aren't going to explain yourself. You shouldn't assume everybody will know everything about photography. At least, that's the way I look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by agfarapid View Post
    For street shooting 2 cameras come to mind: Mamiya 645 with 80mm 2.8 with WLF or a Mamiya C330 or C220 twin lens. I've used both of them successfully. The 645 has the advantage of 15 shots per roll and a pretty modest cost. The Mamiya twin lens cameras are standard 6x6 with 12 frames per roll and with interchangeable lenses from 45mm to 250mm. I use a lovely 65mm which draws beautifully. The C330 winds the shutter and advances the film in one stroke; the C220 requires a separate shutter cocking action. One rarely noted attribute of a twin lens reflex is that there is no mirror black out since there is no moving mirror. Neither have built in meters--on most MF cameras you will have to meter separately. It's pretty easy once you start doing it. As a poster said previously, you meter once and don't change your settings unless the light changes. Suggest Apug Classifieds or KEH. I've used KEH repeatedly over the years with only good things to say about them. I wouldn't suggest the auction site unless you knew what you were doing. Use the web for info on these and other models. There is a wealth of info available even on Wikipedia. Also, try camerapedia.org-it's a goldmine. Happy hunting!
    I've actually used Camerapedia before, it is a good website. But again, little info on medium format. The RB67 page is just noting the format of the camera and posting a picture. There is nothing on the Bronica SQ-B. See, this is why I came here, as I've already learned so much from APUG prior to registering and it seems like there are some really educated people on the matter.

    I looked at the C330 and C220 before but the ones I saw were out of price range. Also, I know about the no blacking out and I find that extremely strange (how else are you supposed to know the photo was taken, aside from the noise of a quiet leaf shutter) but I'm sure would be very interesting to see in use.

    Again about meters...how is it that you know what you're metering? Do you point the meter in the direction of something?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by h.v.; 12-05-2011 at 09:32 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by h.v. View Post
    Ugh...I have to retype this all over again because one of the quoted messages had a link? Just fantastic.

    So, thanks all for your help but I don't really get everything.



    Yeah, I recall reading the Yashica has a light meter, thanks. Where would one find a LunaPro SBC? Thanks for the recommendation on the 124, I had no idea about it. There is one on KEH for $149.00 (USD?) but no lens and doesn't say whether or not it has a 120 back or WLF. Also ugly condition only. Or are they built into the camera unlike Bronicas, Hasselblads, and Mamiyas?



    So, how exactly do these light meters work or any other meters like the Sekonic? Do you point a laser at the thing you want to meter?



    I just got back into film a few months ago so I'm mostly testing all sorts to get a feel for the best ones for me. For colour, I like Kodak Ektar, and black and white, a lot of Ilford and Tmax.



    What is this?



    What is this? Does it magnify the image before you as an artificial zoom in? How do you know what the peripherals of your image will turn out like, then?



    Interesting. I don't completely understand, but I think it will really click when I can visualize it with my own MF camera.



    Yeah, I was taken aback when I found that only 12 exposure are on a roll, especially for someone who loves 36 exposure film. But I guess that 120 film is cheaper (assuming it is because of the lower amount of frames per roll) so I guess I can still end up with the same amount of frames. Plus I can carry another camera or two with me for when the 120 runs out because I'd mostly be using this for street. I also take close care with what I take pictures of as I don't have a lot of money to blow on film, so I try to have as little wasted frames as possible.



    Thanks...this 1000s is actually pretty affordable. Mamiya 645 1000s with 120 back in EX+ on KEH is $159.00. Though, I am not sure how much a WLF or a good 80mm lens (because I like 50mm in 35mm terms) would cost. I will most definitely keep it in mind , though.



    Yeah, I've contemplated this, but I worry about missed shots and wasted frames. As an experiment, I tried this with digital, just so I could see the results right away, as well as not waste any film. Lots of awkward framing, cut off bodies, or bodies not even in the picture. If you have any tips that would make my skills with this much better, though, then by all means tell me.

    Also, it may be noteworthy that I originally was thinking a Nikon F3 or F4S but I've heard the WLF can be pricey as well as not have all metering options and a small image projected.



    This isn't much an issue for me as I almost always do landscape/horizontal orientation when shooting street. Actually, I don't remember the last time I did portrait orientation.



    I'd rather not do that, so I guess the RB67 is off limits for now.



    Great. What is the actual weight/dimensions of the Bronica? There is such little info available about Bronicas on the web. I'm assuming I can attach a strap and carry it "handheld" that way?



    Damn, that sucks. If I can find a 120 back for the SQ-B affordably, then I guess that would be nice. Ideally I'd want to buy the camera already with WLF and 120 back, and it coming with a lens would also be great.



    What's this?



    Thanks, and again, how do these light meters work handheld? And they wouldn't appear strange and intimidating to others on the street?



    Why is it slower and by how much if you could estimate?



    That is what has lured me to MF.



    Thanks! Looks nice and affordable. But will it last? Does it have a built in meter that is accurate? There is one on KEH in EX condition for $245.00 that comes with a 75mm lens. But it mentions in the description, "rokkor" and "speeds off." What does that mean? Also, I'm assuming with TLRs I don't need to shop for backs and WLF separately, right?



    Thank you for the recommendation. I'll definitely look into that book, as I've never heard of him.



    Thanks a lot for the offer, but as I stated originally, I am hoping to begin saving for a MF with WLF, as I don't currently have the funds for something of that sort. I'll probably start saving soon after the holidays.

    ~~

    Additional questions

    1) I've read on multiple occasions that MF has less depth of field and bokeh. But lenses I've seen can go down to f2.8 and f3.5, which is pretty good. Unless, it is with a different metric like the focal length is. Plus, I've seen some fabulous depth of field with a Rollei or Mamiya or Hasselblad, so it can't be that bad, can it?

    2) KEH - how does it work and have you had good experience with it? I've never used it but it is constantly recommended and mentioned, so it can't be that bad, can it? What is shipping and duties like to Canada?

    Thank you all again for all your help in the matter!
    As someone said, yeah, just buy LyleB's 124G. The G is fine, the 124 might be cheaper if you see one.

    I don't feel like pasting all that I'd need to paste to answer these inline so:

    1. Luna Pro SBC is just what I have. The Luna Pro F is the same, except it also works as a flash meter. There are many other good meters available. The earlier Luna Pro was designed for mercury cell batteries that are no longer available. There are work arounds to use them but the SBC uses a 9v battery, available anywhere. The point is to just be sure you can get batteries for your meter. The Luna Pros are very large though. Definitely a hand full, and for street shooting you might want to get something smaller. There are many on the market. Watch the classifieds here. Also as a direct answer to your question:

    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=84013

    But as I said, that's a pretty physically large meter. Take a look at some currently available new:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_sea...ers&rfnc=2609&

    EDIT: Oops, that's an older LunaPro, not an SBC. My mistake.

    Something like this is small and should work fine:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/401208...er?cat_id=2609

    Or if you prefer digital:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/4006-G...er?cat_id=2609

    You can get a good meter for less money used, of course.

    They do look strange to people who aren't photographers and most will have no idea what they are or what you are doing. But I never stick my meter in the face of someone I don't know well enough, either. Just meter something else in the same light - but it sounds like you are new enough to manually metering that this may take some practice. It's easy.

    2. Any 124 or 124G will have a lens. The lens is not interchangeable so they don't list it separately. Likewise the WLF. It's an 80mm f/3.5, roughly equivalent to a 50mm on a 35mm camera. They also all have a WLF. That's just how they are made - it's built in. The Yashica also has a pop out magnifier that, by holding your eye close to the magnifier, gives an enlarged view of the ground glass. It also has a "sports finder" which is really just a framing aid. You can focus separately then use the sports finder to frame a shot from eye level.

    The magnifier doesn't give a zoom effect. You can see all the way to the edge of the ground glass and the edge of your image, it just makes what you see look larger and thus easier to judge critical sharpness.

    Download the manual if you're really interested in these cameras. It will make a lot of things more clear. The 124 and 124G also differ in how the pressure plate is set for 120 or 220 film. I have a 124 so I don't recall how the G works, but both will use both 120 and 220 film. This isn't a big thing nowadays as not much film is available in 220, though the excellent Kodak Portras ARE.

    Manual can be downloaded here for the 124:

    http://www.butkus.org/chinon/yashica...ca_mat_124.htm

    here for the 124G:

    http://www.butkus.org/chinon/yashica...a_mat_124g.htm


    3. Metering - you don't "point a laser" at anything! For a reflected light reading you point the meter at the subject, or more specifically at a part of the subject you wish to render as a medium gray shade. An incident reading is taken (with a different meter or by setting a versatile meter for such) by holding the meter at the subject, pointing it at the camera, and reading the light falling on, rather than reflected off, the subject. By taking a reflected reading of a calibrated gray card (available online) you get the same reading as an incident reading and you're sure you're measuring a value that is the shade the meter is giving you an exposure for. By "metering for prevailing light" I just mean, well, just that. Meter a medium gray value, or a gray card, in the light like the subject and if the light is about the same you don't have to take another reading for each shot. I often just keep a guesstimate exposure set and "wing it" if I don't have time to meter it. This does take some practice and experience, though.

    If it's really important to have more than 12 shots (or 15 for a 645 format camera) you can get 220 film in the Portras and some Fujis (mostly aimed at those wedding photographers who still use film) with twice as much film and thus exposures on the roll. A roll of 120 is a bit cheaper, usually, than 36 exposures of 35mm but not greatly as it has nearly the same surface area coated with emulsion. You can also, as discussed here, carry an extra back, pre-loaded inserts, or just an extra camera depending on the type of camera.

    4. The reason MF has less depth of field has to do with the lenses. A normal lens for 6x6 cm, like on my Yashica, is 80mm. It will have the same DOF as an 80mm lens would on a 35mm camera but that would be a short tele on a 35mm but normal on a 6x6. A 50mm lens on a 6x6 camera like the SQ-B would have the same depth of field as a 50mm on a 35 camera, but it would be a wide angle instead of a normal, and would have less depth of field than the 28mm lens on a 35mm camera that would give about the same amount of subject in the frame.

    I've bought a fair amount of stuff from KEH and never had a problem. But I think it would help you a lot to see some of this gear, if there's a local club or something where you could meet others that shoot MF.
    Last edited by Roger Cole; 12-05-2011 at 11:03 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #23

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    Roger Cole, thank you kindly for the thorough response. I've read it but I'll reply with follow up questions at a later time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    h.v.:

    As I said in the other thread, welcome to APUG.

    There may actually be someone from APUG nearby (Edmonton) who you could talk to to help you with this stuff.

    I buy from a variety of sources, including KEH, but because I am just minutes from a border crossing, I have the option of having items shipped to my US mailing address. For that reason KEH is great for me.

    Most likely you won't have to pay duty if you import something using KEH, but you will have to pay shipping and GST, and as KEH seems to insist on using UPS or Fedex, you will often get hit with their (UPS or FEDEX's) outrageous "brokerage" charges.

    I've had a look at the Alberta Craigslist sites - for photographic stuff, it seems clear that Vancouver is way better. I don't know whether Kijiji is any better. That being said you might want to consider posting a WTB listing for a hand meter.

    The 124G has a waist-level finder and a fixed lens - Lyle's listing looks to be the sort of thing you are looking for.

    You might consider looking at some of the camera instruction manuals on Mike Butkus' excellent website, butkus.org. The manual there for the Yashica 124G takes you through the operation of that camera, and may very well give you some perspective on many of these issues.
    Hello, again!

    How much is usually paid through those brokerage charges? I've heard a lot of bad stuff about Craigslist and Kijiji, so I'm a little hesitant to use either. But it can't hurt to check, I suppose. You're right - Lyle's listing looks good. But I'm really without a clue on how the whole process of buying from an APUG member works and I'm, being new here, not sure of having to give a shipping address to a stranger. Maybe when I get better acquainted with the site. Also, like I said, this would not be something I can buy right now, so unless Lyle can hold out for a few months, then that just isn't going to work.

    Thanks for reminding me about Butkus, I completely forgot about that website. I have used it for manuals on my 35mm equipment.

  4. #24
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    The community here is pretty good - I certainly wouldn't hesitate to share my shipping address with anyone who has posted a few times.

    As I look at it, it really is no different then giving your shipping address to a store, or a magazine, or a credit card company, or your local, friendly taxation authority.

    If you see something you are interested in, communicate with the seller using either PM or email (check their APUG profile). Work out any terms that are acceptable to both of you, and proceed.

    The risks involved are the same as any long distance transaction. If you are buying from someone who has been here for a while, that can give you some comfort. I've bought and sold here, and have had excellent experiences (sales as far away as UK and Australia!).

    You may never have purchased long distance from an individual. If so, your concerns are understandable, but you need to know that many people transact business regularly that way, with generally good results.

    And as for Craigslist, I have had excellent results (sales and purchases). Of course, it really helps to know what you are buying or selling and what the value is. In addition, due to the fact that things like moderate value used film cameras aren't exactly the most popular items, there is less likelihood of buying something that turns out to be stolen or purchased using a stolen credit card.

    In your case, as you don't really know what to check for, it might be hard for you to evaluate the condition of something on Craigslist. But you could always post a link to the ad here and ask for specific advice.

    And as for "brokerage" charges - $50+ isn't unusual from UPS or Fedex. If it goes via USPS and Canada Post, there is usually no "brokerage, but sometimes it is $10 (+ GST).
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by h.v. View Post
    Dan Daniel:

    Perhaps, to an extent. But I also want to know about a product before purchasing it, instead of buying something blindly because it was recommended by someone. What if I figure out what something is after purchasing, when it is actually something I rather dislike and now would rather not use the camera. It would be a waste of money.
    Buying a camera is a tricky thing. it's like buying a car, shoes, choosing a long-term (or short-term) mate. What works for me won't work for you. Or what works for me works for you, but for completely different reasons. Face it, you will not 'know' about a camera until you use it. The more cameras you use, the easier these decisions become, but even after 40 years of cameras i need to hold a camera and take it out before I 'know' about that particular camera. Decades ago my two favorite cameras were a TLR and a 35mm rangefinder. 30 years later, I am right back to these, except that the rangefinder is a 6x9 because I like medium format negatives. But no one could have convinced me that I didn't need to use a MF SLR or a 4x5 view camera or a three different 35mm SLR systems or 6 different digital cameras in the meantime. Buying and selling cameras is usually part of the process.

    The TLR being sold by LyleB can be sold for what you pay him if it doesn't work out. That may sound cruel or short-sighted, but it's the reality. I bet most people here have been through a few cameras over the years. So it isn't a waste of money. Think of owning many of these cameras as simply renting them until you sell them on.

    A problem for you is that $250 is not a lot to spend. Most MF cameras are old and need maintenance or repair. So even if you get a Bronica ETR series with a 50mm and 120 back, there is a decent chance that the back will develop a leak in the next year, the shutter could freeze up, etc. That's a chance with any of these cameras. So condition is very important. This is where buying from a place like KEH, a known entity or place like here where people identify with their sales, or locally, becomes helpful.

    One thing I haven't heard mentioned- the reversed image of a WLF. On both TLRs and SLRs, the image will be upright but reversed. Some people, maybe most, get used to this very quickly. But it does take time, especially on the street where you often want to react but find yourself moving the wrong way or such.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by h.v. View Post
    Roger Cole, thank you kindly for the thorough response. I've read it but I'll reply with follow up questions at a later time.
    I noticed the link I posted to the large format forum meter for sale is for a LunaPro, not an SBC. Here's a selection of used meters:

    http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Acc...c=78407&r=WG&f

    Stay away from the spot meters for now. Using one is not exactly difficult once you understand metering but that's for later. (I have a spot meter and consider it essential for shooting with my 4x5 camera, but never use it for medium format myself.)

  7. #27

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    I would second Mamiya C220/330, both can be found at a decent price and I think they are great cameras. They are the only TLRs that have interchangeable lenses all of which are very high quality. I've bought mine though ebay or other online sites, but they seem much cheaper that a lot of MF kit.

  8. #28
    CGW
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    Dude, I have used Google. Thanks. I actually have been lurking on this site for a while and have searched some even on APUG. I registered because I couldn't find everything out there on what I was looking for in terms of info. If you're going to mention some concept, and the recipient of your message doesn't understand, you should be able to explain yourself or give a link to a place where information can be gathered. Otherwise, you shouldn't be mentioning it because you aren't going to explain yourself. You shouldn't assume everybody will know everything about photography. At least, that's the way I look at it.


    Think you've got some entitlement issues. I wish I had 50 bucks for every photo-related URL I've bookmarked and forum posting I've made over the past decade. Try "how to use a light meter" and take it from there. Don't get the ADHD post-literate avoidance of research. Good luck.

  9. #29

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    Except I know how to use a light meter, so that search would be pointless. What I am curious of is how the handheld works, specifically how it detects light and how you know it is metering the part you actually want to have metered. I could probably do more research in this particular area, but I figured it'd be easier to just ask and on the limited research I had done, I didn't find much. If you've got URLs bookmarked that would be worthwhile for me to know about, then feel free to post 'em.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    The community here is pretty good - I certainly wouldn't hesitate to share my shipping address with anyone who has posted a few times.

    As I look at it, it really is no different then giving your shipping address to a store, or a magazine, or a credit card company, or your local, friendly taxation authority.

    If you see something you are interested in, communicate with the seller using either PM or email (check their APUG profile). Work out any terms that are acceptable to both of you, and proceed.

    The risks involved are the same as any long distance transaction. If you are buying from someone who has been here for a while, that can give you some comfort. I've bought and sold here, and have had excellent experiences (sales as far away as UK and Australia!).

    You may never have purchased long distance from an individual. If so, your concerns are understandable, but you need to know that many people transact business regularly that way, with generally good results.

    And as for Craigslist, I have had excellent results (sales and purchases). Of course, it really helps to know what you are buying or selling and what the value is. In addition, due to the fact that things like moderate value used film cameras aren't exactly the most popular items, there is less likelihood of buying something that turns out to be stolen or purchased using a stolen credit card.

    In your case, as you don't really know what to check for, it might be hard for you to evaluate the condition of something on Craigslist. But you could always post a link to the ad here and ask for specific advice.

    And as for "brokerage" charges - $50+ isn't unusual from UPS or Fedex. If it goes via USPS and Canada Post, there is usually no "brokerage, but sometimes it is $10 (+ GST).
    To me it is completely different using an established business and using a private individual that you don't know. Businesses can gather up reputations from thousands upon thousands of people and they have incentive to not scam people. That incentive is that the person being scammed could report them or make it public and their business base would be ruined.

    Perhaps in time I'll warm up to using the APUG Classifieds. Especially if I start looking at more of them more closely. Thanks for the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonh82 View Post
    I would second Mamiya C220/330, both can be found at a decent price and I think they are great cameras. They are the only TLRs that have interchangeable lenses all of which are very high quality. I've bought mine though ebay or other online sites, but they seem much cheaper that a lot of MF kit.
    Yeah, they seem like swell cameras. Except that all of them I see listed on KEH are out of my price range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    I noticed the link I posted to the large format forum meter for sale is for a LunaPro, not an SBC. Here's a selection of used meters:


    Stay away from the spot meters for now. Using one is not exactly difficult once you understand metering but that's for later. (I have a spot meter and consider it essential for shooting with my 4x5 camera, but never use it for medium format myself.)
    Thanks again for all the info and advice. Again, I'll reply to your longer post not yet, but soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Daniel View Post
    Buying a camera is a tricky thing. it's like buying a car, shoes, choosing a long-term (or short-term) mate. What works for me won't work for you. Or what works for me works for you, but for completely different reasons. Face it, you will not 'know' about a camera until you use it. The more cameras you use, the easier these decisions become, but even after 40 years of cameras i need to hold a camera and take it out before I 'know' about that particular camera. Decades ago my two favorite cameras were a TLR and a 35mm rangefinder. 30 years later, I am right back to these, except that the rangefinder is a 6x9 because I like medium format negatives. But no one could have convinced me that I didn't need to use a MF SLR or a 4x5 view camera or a three different 35mm SLR systems or 6 different digital cameras in the meantime. Buying and selling cameras is usually part of the process.

    The TLR being sold by LyleB can be sold for what you pay him if it doesn't work out. That may sound cruel or short-sighted, but it's the reality. I bet most people here have been through a few cameras over the years. So it isn't a waste of money. Think of owning many of these cameras as simply renting them until you sell them on.

    A problem for you is that $250 is not a lot to spend. Most MF cameras are old and need maintenance or repair. So even if you get a Bronica ETR series with a 50mm and 120 back, there is a decent chance that the back will develop a leak in the next year, the shutter could freeze up, etc. That's a chance with any of these cameras. So condition is very important. This is where buying from a place like KEH, a known entity or place like here where people identify with their sales, or locally, becomes helpful.

    One thing I haven't heard mentioned- the reversed image of a WLF. On both TLRs and SLRs, the image will be upright but reversed. Some people, maybe most, get used to this very quickly. But it does take time, especially on the street where you often want to react but find yourself moving the wrong way or such.
    You're right, what works for me may not work for you. But I explained what works for me, so naturally I'd assume you'd cater your response to that based on your experience. For example, some have stated in this thread they don't do much street, but they can still say what may work and what has worked for the little street that they happen to do.

    Regardless, I am merely looking for advice and information. I am noting peoples suggestions for light meters and cameras and whatnot, but that doesn't mean I have to take said suggestions. I will take the products suggested and look into it a bit more myself. Just because someone says get a Yashica 124, doesn't mean I'll get it.

    I know I will not "know" a camera until I have it in my hands and play with it a bit, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to "know" as much as possible about the cameras so that I can make the most informed decision for myself possible. Hence my questions.

    And again, I cannot pay LyleB right now anyways for the camera advertised, I am still needing to save up. Oh, and I don't buy into the doctrine that cameras are disposable and thus just something to rent until you're bored with it. I want something that will last. A camera that, if it is a camera that suits me well, I can use still 10 years from now.

    Thanks for mentioning the WLF. I had heard this about 35mm SLRs with WLF, but didn't know this was also so with medium format. That would take some getting used to.

  10. #30
    CGW
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    Except I know how to use a light meter, so that search would be pointless. What I am curious of is how the handheld works, specifically how it detects light and how you know it is metering the part you actually want to have metered. I could probably do more research in this particular area, but I figured it'd be easier to just ask and on the limited research I had done, I didn't find much. If you've got URLs bookmarked that would be worthwhile for me to know about, then feel free to post 'em.

    LOL. I think if you knew your way around a handheld meter you'd know how they work and what they read. Just too needy...



 

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