"Your iPhone Was Built, In Part, By 13 Year-Olds Working 16 Hours A Day For 70 Cents An Hour"
"If Apple decided to build iPhones and iPads for Americans using American labor rules, two things would likely happen:
- The prices of iPhones and iPads would go up
- Apple's profit margins would go down"
Support German craftsman. Buy a Leica!
"Photography, like surfing, is an infinite process, a constantly evolving exploration of life."
Show yourself out.
Originally Posted by Dali
I photograph things to see what things look like photographed.
- Garry Winogrand
I've always looked at it this way: If you grade lenses on a scale of 1-100, with 100 being perfect (by some universally-agreed on measure, not an easy thing to arrive at) then the best computer designed lenses around might be 97 or 98 and the Leica lenses might be 98 or 99 --- or something.
Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac
Or maybe not.
Leica lenses are like Leica cameras -- made to higher construction tolerances -- they're designed to have a fit and feel that feels good for a very long time, and this also means that they stay the way they were made for a very long time where a cheaper lens mount might work loose, or get out of line, or something.
Leica lenses may bench test better than others, especially when it comes to keeping elements in line over a long period of time, but then again, even new they may not. Lens criteria may look good on the bench but suck in real life, and Leica has, in the past, said it pursues operational excellence, not necessarily technical perfection. The new family of apo lenses, I dunno.
Same with the cameras, which were never hand-made to the point of each part in each camera being carved out of steel by some gnome in Wetzlar, but the parts were produced with the best machine equipment available at the time and then hand-fitted to ensure the best fit and feel. This is the expensive difference. Properly made parts that are made to fit and work together right last longer because they wear less and work better with each other.
Don Goldberg told me that the Leicaflex SL2 was the last of the really old-school SLR Leicas but even it has some shortcuts -- look inside through the lens mount, he said, and notice that there are small phillips-head screws holding things together (which there are.) Those are to make it easier for the lower-paid workers at the sub-assembly plant in Portugal to put the sections of the cameras together before the final assembly in Germany could be done.
Shortcuts with a Leica? Oh the humanity! But the SL2 is one hell of a sweet machine.
For the price of high end digital SLR or some expensive iphone, ipad, or expensive laptop - you can buy used M body + one Leitz lens that will last you a lifetime (or more probably - multiple lifetimes: your, your kids and so on). New Leica stuff is expensive, but used equipment is still excellent and affordable.
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I bought a Leica M4 body new in 1970. Its five lenses are as old or older. They still work as well as ever except for one lens that took a dive into a dirty creek. This makes the Leica one of the most economical of the many cameras I've owned in the past 65 years, less expensive than the film used in it. Unlike a few products from Nikon and other premium makers, it is a delight to use.
I own two leicas, an M7 and an M9. I could probably have bought a vast myriad of lenses and accessories were I to have bought any other system, but where would I put it all? I can carry two lenses and two bodies in a small bag and not put my neck out.
There is certainly a premium to pay for Leicas and they don't work for everyone. Better is subjective and a Leica is better for me. I find the results different from other cameras, but that's the lens, not the camera. I love rangefinders (my other walk about camera is a Mamiya 7) as I feel it puts me back in contact with my subject. I have to focus on my subject as opposed to have my camera do it for me.
My philosophy has changed over the years where less has become more. I am more likely to do much more with fewer lenses, fewer trinkets and accessories as I push myself to the limit of what I own. I am not going to rush out and buy more lenses. I have a 35mm and a 90mm lens. I work with that.
Then there's personal preference. I like nice things. I like nice design. I like well thought out, uncomplicated things. I can't be bothered with a thousand buttons and a million features anymore. I'm dumbing down. If I look at my M7 and my Mamiya 7, the Mamiya will fall apart, it's plastic and it takes wonderful pictures and I will buy another one when it does, but the M7 feels like a Panzer Camera and I know I'll never have to replace it.
The prices are steep but I've made a choice and I know that in the long run I'll spend less on upgrading systems. I spend money on other cameras too (Mamiya 7, RZ67, Hasselblad 500) but I don't have children so I'm not spending anyone's college fund.
I love my Leicas and I love the lenses. To me they feel different, the quality, attributes and results may be idiosyncratic and subjective but I don't care what anyone else thinks. I care what I think and feel about the things I choose to spend my life with.
Apple is a sleazebag outfit and Jobs was no better than any other pusher - he created a need and then sold them the fix.
Originally Posted by Felinik
You cant design a lens as good as Leica if you dont give 500 times more money for the glass. And all of the Schott Glass and other glass manufacturers expensive glasses are invented by Leica. Noctilux is 10000 dollars and its glass takes one year to cool down when you are decreasing the temperature 1 degree may be per week when keeping the heat equal and continue to burn electricity for 1 year.
This is not a good assembly game but building a boat from cheap polyester or vacuum heated epoxy and carbon or buying 3 meter sail boat or 40 meters jboat.
And you pay for the engineering , whatever computer you ever use , you cant never be sure computer found the final perfect design when stopped. This is mathematically impossible and needs human mind.
Nikon , Canon uses BK7 borax glass and its sensivity is 1/50 of Leica glass.
Summilux took 10 years to design.
And these gentleman drives the all new lens design techniques in mathematics and publish a word per 10 years and change the stream.
I used 6 Leica cameras and I dont ask to anyone but looked to the images of Magnum , Black Star, Life.
We stucked in us law of copyright and nobody sees good examples. That is the biggest drawback of this forum
Last edited by Mustafa Umut Sarac; 09-06-2012 at 12:52 PM. Click to view previous post history.
What makes you think other hardware manufacturers would care a bit more than he/Apple does? As an example, mentioned in the thread before, Vietnam is used by Canon, as well as Pentax, and probably others too, else a DSLR would never cost as "little" as $500-600...
Originally Posted by E. von Hoegh
So if Lecia's actually produced in Germany there's, partly, a reason for the high price (I am also very sure there's a huge mark-up just because it's Leica, the brand known to be "the" rangefinder brand).
And yeah, sleezebag, but far from alone about it.