Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 71,832   Posts: 1,582,353   Online: 934
      
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22
  1. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,025
    This is much more an issue and poblem for di***** machinegunners, who routinely fire of as many frames as possible to 'get a good one'. I wonder how the Eos 350Ds/XTi and Nikkon D60s etc get on with this abuse? I suspect that the user grows weary of their new toy before shutter life bcomes a major issue. I suspect some crazed amateurs work their shutters as hard as pros as they blaze away to get as many thumbnails as possible to choose from!

    Thankfully, I have never had a shutter failure but then again I am very low volume.

  2. #12
    DBP
    DBP is offline

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,886
    Images
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post
    I have seen once, a shutter that literally fell apart. It was a Nikon FE2, just six months old it had just over 3,000 rolls of film through, the whole shutter mechanism dropped it's lunch over a roll of film.

    For what it's worth, 2,500 rolls of 36 exposure film is 100,000 shutter cycles. You load a film in then usually proceed to fire three shutter and wind cycles, once 36 frames have gone through you end up with a 1/2 cocked shutter when you feel the film end tugging. You then unload the camera and virtually everyone I know continues the winding cycle, then fires the shutter.

    You have to fire that last shutter cycle so you can load another roll of film. This makes every roll going through, needing 40 shutter cycles.

    My first F3 body has had about 5,500 rolls of film go through. I have never had it serviced, it has always worked flawlessly, but it looks very, very secondhand.

    My other newer F3 body has had about 1,000 rolls only and looks pristine by comparison.

    My FE2 has had about 3,000 rolls of film through and the shutter mechanism still works, but not perfectly. Cannot put a name to what isn't working 100%

    Mick.
    Wow, that's 15 rolls a day. seven days a week. How and where was it being used?

  3. #13
    Daniel_OB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Mississauga, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    420
    Snegron
    the best to look at when shutter life is around is a digital SLR. People shoot really a lot with them, sometimes thosands of shots a day. I would go to find some digital forum and post a question. The mass of the blades on such cameras are smaller, but it does not change things a lot (or noticable).

    And that Nikon did stress analysis, is true. It is even not so complicated if one knows how to do it (it is called FEA - finite element analysis). Nikon F6 camera body is brought to the level of art in engineering, and most likely the most complicated machine ever made by human (far more complicated than a Spaceshattle design).

    www.Leica-R.com
    Last edited by Daniel_OB; 06-13-2007 at 02:17 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #14
    snegron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Hot, Muggy, Florida
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel_OB View Post
    Snegron
    the best to look at when shutter life is around is a digital SLR. People shoot really a lot with them, sometimes thosands of shots a day. I would go to find some digital forum and post a question. The mass of the blades on such cameras are smaller, but it does not change things a lot (or noticable).

    And that Nikon did stress analysis, is true. It is even not so complicated if one knows how to do it (it is called FEA - finite element analysis). Nikon F6 camera body is brought to the level of art in engineering, and most likely the most complicated machine ever made by human (far more complicated than a Spaceshattle design).

    www.Leica-R.com


    I'm not really concerned with the shutter life of DSLR's because I'm sure that DSLR's have been designed with more emphasis on electronics than mechanics. I expect shutter life to be much shorter than that of 35mm cameras. As Tom mentioned above, DSLR users probably will grow tired of their new toys before they reach the point of shutter failure. I'm sure that engineers at Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, etc, have taken this into account and spent less time designing for durability and more so fo higher pixel counts.

    I was reading in Shutterbug Magazine today a letter written by someone who has a Leica IIIa screwmount camera with a shutter that is falling apart about to go bad. This camera is well over 50 years old and who knows how many shutter clicks it took to get to this point.


    Other than Mick's FE, has anyone ever worked a Nikon to death? Anyone here ever witnessed the end of an F or F3 (metering heads not included)?

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    79
    I can't say for sure on 35mm cameras, but I have taken apart and oiled a number of vintage Rolleiflex (Compur) shutters from the late 20's- early 30's and all any of them needed was oil. Those were THE professional cameras of that era. How many shutter snaps in 75+ years is anyones guess. I think in general well designed leaf shutters have a life expectancy advantage over focal plane shutters. There is not nearly as much mechanical travel involved, nor abrupt acceleration/ deceleration. Hasselblads did not become really reliable until they came out with the 500c (1957). This deep sixed the focal plane shutter of the 1600 and 1000f in favor of a leaf shutter in the lens, analogous to what Rollei had been using for nearly 30 years. But Hasselblad added the advantage of removable backs and lenses and took over the pro market. Old 500 series Zeiss lenses with their Compur and then Prontor shutters are very reliable, and shutters usually just need oiling.

    Steve Perry
    Steve Perry

  6. #16
    Mick Fagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,845
    Images
    29
    Wow, that's 15 rolls a day. seven days a week. How and where was it being used?

    Photographing a complete school is rather taxing on equipment. First you have to photograph each class as a group, minimum 2 frames to ensure you get the best picture of the teacher, then you do each student with about 10% extra shots required because you know certain students are nervous as anything and the second picture will be the one that sells. Then there is the staff as a group and as individuals, then the executive staff, Principal, vice Principal etcetera. This is usually accomplished by mid morning, then it's onto the next school in the afternoon.

    Through contacts I then did some netball teams and one thing led to another and I was photographing some basketball teams as well.

    I tried a motordrive for the FE2, but it died as well, plus the cost of the batteries was enormous.

    I was running 4 bulk loaders of film, two loaded with FP4 and two loaded with FP5. These loaders travelled with me and we would bulk load either fast or medium speed film, just prior to shooting.

    More or less that is how the FE2 died.

    Other than Mick's FE, has anyone ever worked a Nikon to death? Anyone here ever witnessed the end of an F or F3 (metering heads not included)?

    I have seen about a dozen dead F3 bodies, to put it mildly, they had been flogged mercilessly day in and day out by two of the local newspapers. Between them they sold in bulk to a secondhand camera dealer, about 70 F3 bodies that were still working. All of the cameras fell into one of two types, working well but well worn. Just working, well worn and invariably with the shutter about to fall apart.

    About 10 - 15 of the total lot required new shutters, which by the way isn't that expensive to be done. Last year a friend bought a cheap F3 body for $50 AUD, took it to a camera mechanic and had a new shutter fitted and a CLA for $280 AUD. That body looks crappy, but the innards are pretty good for hobby work and the owner has a camera with probably the most extensive range of accessories available for any camera ever made.

    Mick.

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    348
    Personally, I've killed one FM from - new (1982) till returned from NPS (and others) with the "unrepairable due to lack of service parts" memo. That life included 6 years of six day-a-week news work mounted on an MD-11 and three or four lighter year's work after I took up teaching. During the news paper stint, I also had a very short lived FM2 shutter on a company camera that didn't last a year. Nikon fixed it and I would not be suprized to find it still working.

  8. #18

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Northern Aquitaine
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    4,913
    The key here is MTBF -- mean time before failure. It's a mean, and (I suspect) meaningless figure, and therefore a substantially meaningless question. Nikon reputedly used to cycle cameras 'to death' and I've seen similar tests to destruction performed on e.g. Manfrotto tripods. I doubt if anyone has ever tested a statistically significant number of cameras from any batch so I believe it's a substantially made-up number: "If this camera doesn't wear out in 250,000 exposures, we can claim 100,000 without worrying." Most will last a LOT longer than the mean; some will fail quite quickly (and be replaced under guarantee). Many more will be used so lightly that wear is not an issue, though dried-up lubricants may be.

    Cheers,

    Roger

  9. #19
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    13,826
    FWIW ...
    From textbook type examples of MTBF [Mean Time Between Failures] in reliability. If two light bulbs are lit at the same time and the first one fails after one unit of time, then the second one will be estimated to fail at 1.5 units of time.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  10. #20
    copake_ham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    NYC or Copake or Tucson
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    4,092
    Images
    56
    I don't know if it's still there - but years ago when I visited the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto - in the "mechanical/industrial" section they had a contraption that was apparently used by the shoe industry to determine the MTBF of leather "uppers" on men's dress shoes.

    This "wonder" litereally was a kind of mechanical leg with a men's shoe on one end. Employing a mechanical counter, the contraption's piston would drive the "leg" flexing the shoe on-and-on-and-on; presumably until the leather cracked.

    I was never sure if the thing was really used in the shoe industry - but it was hypnotic to watch it in "action"!

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin