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  1. #1

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    What were they thinking??? (rant)

    It seems it's all Oskar Barnack's fault. He put shutter dial on the body, not on the lens, as god intended.

    This

    is how cameras should be operated, isn't it? Aperture and shutter should be together, which enables constant Ev by simply turning both dials. And, lens absolutely should have DOF scale for different f-stops. I mean, at least the later is the foundation of photography, isn't it?

    Well, they managed to push these



    down our throats.

    Why on earth did we accept that? My guess is, it was pre-digital equivalent of "megapixel madness". Fill it with features, sell it to the masses.

    Ok, I accept the "P" mode. It's fair. Use evaluative metering to get a decent exposure for shots where the moment is everything.
    But what on earth is the purpose of Tv and Av? If i want to control my exposure, I HAVE to take different readings and set exposure compensation anyway, so it's actually the same as simply shooting in manual mode at the first place.

    And even dials wouldn't be all that bad, if manual mode would let me keep my exposure value constant, and simply choose any of the equivalent settings (probably some bodies do, my current don't).

    But the true sin (which is the consequence of using dials in the first place) is taking away DOF scale. They basically sacrificed the basic tool every photographer needs to implement features which made photography more accessible to everyman, ruining the camera in the process. How on earth did real photographers accept that?

  2. #2
    eddym's Avatar
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    There, there... Feel better now?
    Eddy McDonald
    www.fotoartes.com
    Eschew defenestration!

  3. #3
    DWThomas's Avatar
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    Well I don't suppose you wanted any logical counter argument but I have a camera with a "mode" dial close to identical to the one you show and I use Av and Tv a fair amount. The lower half with all the little icons could disappear and I wouldn't notice. I often use Av when photographing a series of objects where I want decent depth of field. I set the aperture, the camera figures out the exposure. I've also used Tv to force the camera to do nasty things to maintain a high shutter speed to reduce motion blur while blazing away documenting ceramics workshop demos and such. I consider it 'semi-automatic" and relatively useful.

    Now Zeus forbid you ever try to set focus by estimating and setting the distance in that little window! And yes, I'll bet these days when they could put a few megabytes of programmed memory in the beasties, they could easily have a button to push to bring up a depth of field scale on the LCD indicators -- they could even offer a user programmable circle of confusion!

    Anyway, progress always seems to be a two-way street.

    "Hope you feel better now."

  4. #4
    BradS's Avatar
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    Get a real camera and quit tur bitchin




  5. #5
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jernejk View Post
    It seems it's all Oskar Barnack's fault. He put shutter dial on the body, not on the lens, as god intended.
    The only thing wrong is your perception.:o :o :o :o :o Real cameras like Hasselblads have apertures and shutter speeds on the lens so that they can be linked or unlinked to the EV setting. That way, if the shutter in one lens has a problem, one can change lenses and continue photographing while the first lens gets repaired.

    [You may remove your foot from your mouth now.]

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    Real cameras like Hasselblads have apertures and shutter speeds on the lens so that they can be linked or unlinked to the EV setting. That way, if the shutter in one lens has a problem, one can change lenses and continue photographing while the first lens gets repaired.
    While that's the reason, they could implement it differently and discard this quite usable feature, don't you think?

  7. #7
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jernejk View Post
    While that's the reason, they could implement it differently and discard this quite usable feature, don't you think?
    No. The Hasselblad V Series uses leaf shutters rather than focal plane shutters*. The 1600 and 1000 series which was made until 1957 had a focal plane shutter but they were too unreliable and fragile. Leaf shutters have some advantages, for example, the guide number for a strobe is the same at all shutter speeds and all speed are synced. Focal plane shutters are very limited in choices of shutter speeds with strobes.

    With the Hasselblad V Series, once the EV is set, the aperture and shutter are linked. Rotating the two together keeps the same exposure [for a faster shutter speed, the lenses is opened one stop, ... et cetera]

    Steve

    * skip the discussion on the 200 and 2000 series for now. Just keep it to basics for now please.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  8. #8
    lns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    The only thing wrong is your perception.:o :o :o :o :o Real cameras like Hasselblads have apertures and shutter speeds on the lens so that they can be linked or unlinked to the EV setting.....]

    Steve
    Isn't that what he said? I read him as preferring the Hasselblad/Zeiss design, with shutter speed on the lens, to the Barnack/Nikon/etc. design of shutter speed on the camera body.

    The Hasselblad lenses are so large it's easy to rotate both shutter speed and aperture dials, and I do love the linked EV. But I also prefer having shutter speed controls on the body of 35mm cameras. The lenses of 35mm cameras, especially those designed by Barnack, are much smaller. Too many dials on a small lens would be hard to fiddle with. Maybe that's why most 35mm cameras are designed as they are, and not as Hasselblads are.

    I do agree with the OP about how helpful it is to have a depth of field scale. That's another reason I like manual film cameras and manual focus lenses. But let's face it, the vast, vast majority of camera buyers want cameras that do everything for them, and probably only a very few even understand what depth of field is.

    -Laura

  9. #9

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    Since this is the 35mm page, I won’t mention that no LF lenses have DOF scales .

    Mike

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    No. The Hasselblad V Series uses leaf shutters rather than focal plane shutters*. The 1600 and 1000 series which was made until 1957 had a focal plane shutter but they were too unreliable and fragile. Leaf shutters have some advantages, for example, the guide number for a strobe is the same at all shutter speeds and all speed are synced. Focal plane shutters are very limited in choices of shutter speeds with strobes.
    There are a few issues with that.

    First, let's say: more limited.
    Some (35 mm format) focal plane shutter cameras sync up to speeds not (or if only by a stop) slower than most leaf shutter lenses.

    Focal plane shutters (almost) all offer faster speeds than all leaf shutters, and that would make the leaf shutter more limited.

    The guide number of a flash does not depend on what type of shutter you use.

    And i have a few 1000-series cameras that still work pretty well, thank you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    With the Hasselblad V Series, once the EV is set, the aperture and shutter are linked. Rotating the two together keeps the same exposure [for a faster shutter speed, the lenses is opened one stop, ... et cetera]
    They are only linked when you want to, so "can be linked" would be more accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    * skip the discussion on the 200 and 2000 series for now. Just keep it to basics for now please.
    The 200/2000-series have the shutter speed ring where the OP wants it to be too.

    Just like Olympus OM cameras: Jernejk, all you have to do is pick a proper camera!

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