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  1. #21
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by baachitraka View Post
    Now, the hunt is for a camera which takes sheet film and compact as 35mm SLR. ...
    The Patent Etui. The 9x12cm version is smaller than most 35mm cameras, the 6.5x9cm version is half that again. I even think there is a very rare 6x4.5cm version - my 6x4.5 Voigtländer Bergheil is TINY, the Patent Etui is a fraction of the thickness. i.e. smaller than half a cellphone...
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  2. #22
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole View Post
    The Patent Etui. The 9x12cm version is smaller than most 35mm cameras, the 6.5x9cm version is half that again. I even think there is a very rare 6x4.5cm version - my 6x4.5 Voigtländer Bergheil is TINY, the Patent Etui is a fraction of the thickness. i.e. smaller than half a cellphone...
    I'll second the 9x12 Patent Etui being small as I have two, far less than it's rivals but while the smaller formats are still ahead of their rivals it's by a smaller margin.

    The beauty is that 9x12 sheet film is readily available as well plus roll film backs are easy to find.

    Here a Patent Etui and a Crown Graphic plus my 6x4.5 Ikonta Should add that the Crown & Etui both have 135mm f4.5 CZJ Tessars, the Etui's is about 10 years older and a far better lens, (The Crown had a redesigned 1932 Tessar and the glass is softer less contrast with ageing).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Patent Etui is light but rigid, I'm in the process of fitting a modern lens to my second camera as I prefer coated lenses.

    Ian

  3. #23
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baachitraka View Post
    I am trying to understand zone system more clearly.

    Typical landscape scene
    ===============

    - Spot Meter the shadow(18% gray) and place it in Zone 3(-2 stops from 18% gray).

    - Take a shot

    - Develop negative.

    - Decide the print ..., N-1, N, N+1, ...
    That is too formulaic, I think, to understand it. It doesn't incorporate much aesthetic decision making. Specifically, the idea that you must meter something that you want to be a Zone II or Zone III. You just meter whatever you want and place it wherever you want, such that it benefits you in achieving what you want, within the controls of the System. This is usually the placement of a low tone such that it holds detail or texture, but it need not be. Don't get locked into the mindset that that is the way it must be all the time and that shadows should always be of a certain value.

    Here is how I approach the actual practice of it:

    I. Calibration

    A. Find a working exposure index
    B. Find a normal development
    C. Find plus and minus development, and corresponding EI changes

    II. Shooting

    A. Decide to take a picture
    B. Decide what you want the picture to look like
    C. Decide how to expose and develop

    1. Meter the brightness range of the composition to see what you have to work (or contend) with
    2. Meter a tone you want to place (any tone; it need not be a low tone in every case)
    3. Place the tone (by deviating a specific amount from what the meter sez, or going with it in some cases)
    4. Take note of where other tones fall tonally when you place that tone
    5. Plan to use one of your predetermined development procedures, and apply any needed EI changes to the meter (for instance, if you need N-2 processing, you may need to increase your EI a bit)

    D. Shoot

    III. Film processing

    A. Follow the plan decided upon in II.C.5

    IV. Printing

    A. Print

    V. Analysis

    A. When printing, think about whether your neg is truly ideal for the print you want to make
    B. Make changes in your procedures based on your printing experiences


    The most important parts are II.A, II.B, and II.D. Everything else can tolerate some error and slop. But you need to be able to find pictures, decide what you want them to look like, and go through the work of actually shooting them before anything else in the Zone System becomes worth the trouble at all. In other words, don't do what most people do, and use the System "just because;" do it to help you achieve a personal artistic vision.

    Second most important is learning to print well, IMHO. You simply cannot give yourself any feedback as to the whole Zone System process if you don't know what you are doing to at least some degree in the darkroom. Everything in the Zone System is designed to serve the vision of the print. If you don't know what steps to take in the darkroom to get yourself there from what is on your negative, then you don't know how to properly judge and tweak your shooting and developing to help you out.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 05-08-2011 at 05:20 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  4. #24
    baachitraka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    I'll second the 9x12 Patent Etui being small as I have two, far less than it's rivals but while the smaller formats are still ahead of their rivals it's by a smaller margin.

    The beauty is that 9x12 sheet film is readily available as well plus roll film backs are easy to find.

    Here a Patent Etui and a Crown Graphic plus my 6x4.5 Ikonta Should add that the Crown & Etui both have 135mm f4.5 CZJ Tessars, the Etui's is about 10 years older and a far better lens, (The Crown had a redesigned 1932 Tessar and the glass is softer less contrast with ageing).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	etui06.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	322.9 KB 
ID:	34698

    The Patent Etui is light but rigid, I'm in the process of fitting a modern lens to my second camera as I prefer coated lenses.

    Ian
    I am subscribed to your posts, hope I get updated regarding modern lens.
    OM-1n: Do I need to own a Leica?
    Rolleicord Va: Humble.
    Agfa Isolette III: Amazingly simple, yet it produces outstanding negatives.
    Holga 120GFN: EV 11 or EV 12.

  5. #25
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Here's a twist I don't think I've seen before: My aim point is mid-way between Grade 2 and Grade 3 instead of the traditional Grade 2.

    I defined this by setting my upper and lower control limits by picking a negative that printed properly on Grade 2 with a moderate amount of burning, and a negative that printed well on Grade 3 with a little dodging. Naturally, I want to have my aim be in the middle.

  6. #26
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Here's a twist I don't think I've seen before: My aim point is mid-way between Grade 2 and Grade 3 instead of the traditional Grade 2.

    I defined this by setting my upper and lower control limits by picking a negative that printed properly on Grade 2 with a moderate amount of burning, and a negative that printed well on Grade 3 with a little dodging. Naturally, I want to have my aim be in the middle.
    Bruce Barnbaum makes a strong case for placing the shadows on Zone IV.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  7. #27
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffle View Post
    Bruce Barnbaum makes a strong case for placing the shadows on Zone IV.
    His video makes an important point that it is important to give shadows sufficient exposure.

    I was actually talking about something different, the calibration to print grade. Grade 2 is the traditional standard. I aim between Grade 2 and Grade 3. (Because Grade 1 paper is not available).

    I was wrong to bring that wild idea into this beginner's conversation. My unusual tactic is relevant only for large format on graded paper.

    For roll film, I have seen advice to develop to N-1 1/2 rely on variable paper grades instead of variable development times. I would recommend following the advice of someone who has adapted the Zone System for rollfilm.

  8. #28
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Here's a twist I don't think I've seen before: My aim point is mid-way between Grade 2 and Grade 3 instead of the traditional Grade 2.

    I defined this by setting my upper and lower control limits by picking a negative that printed properly on Grade 2 with a moderate amount of burning, and a negative that printed well on Grade 3 with a little dodging. Naturally, I want to have my aim be in the middle.
    The flexibility of the ideas behind the system allows us to do things like this. I standardize on a flatter-than-normal negative by calibrating to a grade 3 paper, when I use the Zone System (not all that often any more). I started doing this simply due to the slim selection of graded materials. There are only a few grades available now. I like standardizing on grade 3 because with the graded paper I use (Emaks), it gives me the choice of using my standard grade 3, one grade below standard, and one grade above. And it also gives me negatives that will print just fine on VC paper, with plenty of room to raise contrast or lower it.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  9. #29
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    I love the Zone System, but not a slave to it. It was invented during the days of graded paper. How does modern MG paper effect ZS users today? I use it for pre-visualization and keeping shadow detail when it's desired and keeping highlights from blowing out. I've also heard that older films with thicker emulsions tolerate N+ and N- development better. Is that true?

  10. #30
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    ... My aim point is mid-way between Grade 2 and Grade 3 instead of the traditional Grade 2. ...
    Bill

    You are not alone. All a matter of choice. Grade 2.5 gives a bit more midtone contrast and many people prefer that. But when you are talking 1/2-grade differences, the question becomes: How do you know what paper grade you are getting from your filter or filtration method?
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

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