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  1. #31
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffle View Post
    Bruce Barnbaum makes a strong case for placing the shadows on Zone IV.
    John Sexton does the same. Look at both gentlemen's pictures and you don't need much more to be convinced. On the other hand, learning to visualize a Zone III also helps. Zone III is much darker than many people realize. It is a dark shadow with texture, not a shadow with full detail. If a shadow with full detail is easier to visualize for you, placing shadows on Zone IV is the right thing to do. Whatever it takes to gives shadows plenty of exposure!
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  2. #32
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    ... How does modern MG paper effect ZS users today? ...
    Compensating for subject contrast through film development is very similar to compensating for negative contrast with variable-contrast (VC) papers. This does not mean that VC papers have replaced the Zone System altogether. The Zone System delivers a perfect negative, and VC papers are very tolerant of less than perfect negatives. But, when used to get the most out of a mediocre negative, VC papers leave less room to adjust for local imagecontrast needs. However, when used together, Zone System and variable-contrast papers provide more creative flexibility than either one possibly could alone. For a fineart printer, this is not an either/or decision. Both are powerful tools in their own right.
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  3. #33
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    I standardize on a flatter-than-normal negative by calibrating to a grade 3 paper... I started doing this simply due to the slim selection of graded materials...
    That's the exact reason why I did this, because I can only get grades 2 and 3.


    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    ... But when you are talking 1/2-grade differences, the question becomes: How do you know what paper grade you are getting from your filter or filtration method?
    I'm using graded papers. I expect variations of 1/2 grade in either direction. I just don't want to fall off the papers.

  4. #34
    Ole
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    I use graded papers too, but adjust the contrast by varying developer and/or toner. I have no problems getting a G2 paper behave like anything from G0 to G4!
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  5. #35
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    Compensating for subject contrast through film development is very similar to compensating for negative contrast with variable-contrast (VC) papers.
    Quote Originally Posted by RalphLambrecht View Post
    This does not mean that VC papers have replaced the Zone System altogether. The Zone System delivers a perfect negative, and VC papers are very tolerant of less than perfect negatives.
    So true. One thing the Zone System has taught me is that how much more dynamic range our eyes have compared to film when it comes to pre-visualization. I've struggled with many less-than-perfect negatives in the darkroom. It's a lot of work to get an image with decent tonality with bad negatives. Spend a little time in exposing properly and processing your film right and it's more fun in the darkroom. BTW love your advice. Save me from learning the hard way

  6. #36
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    ... One thing the Zone System has taught me is that how much more dynamic range our eyes have compared to film when it comes to pre-visualization. ...
    My eye/brain system is still running the old 'visualization' software. I haven't upgraded to 'pre-visualization' yet.

    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  7. #37
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    Your software beats my bewilderment with photography. Still learning after 26 years of shooting. Still more to learn. I want to master Zen and the art of analog photography.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toffle View Post
    Bruce Barnbaum makes a strong case for placing the shadows on Zone IV.
    I just watched this video and wanted to chime in. Bruce claims that if you place your textured shadows on Zone III that they will be to compressed and flat. He draws the HD curve (attached)

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bruce Barnbaum and Zone IV placement.jpg 
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    and says by putting them onto Zone IV instead that they won't be compressed because Zone IV is on the straight line portion of the HD curve.
    My problem with this explanation is that it assumes that Zone III is always on the toe of the curve. This statement is likely to be the case if you have rated the film at the box speed/ISO. Bruce's solution is to overexpose by 1-2 stops and then print Zone IV down to Zone III.

    This explanation tells me Bruce is assuming one is setting the film's ISO to the box speed. He doesn't appear to be encouraging one to rate the film according to the SBR using a quick and easy prescription (WBM Ed1 p. 131), or even the results of one's more elaborate testing. In fact if one chooses to calibrate their film as per the elaborate and precise method in WBM (Ed1 p. 133), the low end of Zone II is aligned with the film's speed point which is 0.17 above FB+F. This then ensures Zone III is in the straight line portion of the HD curve and no compression occurs.

    It also doesn't matter whether you choose to identify Zone IV in a scene compared to the darker Zone III, neither zones should suffer compression, or flattening of the shadow details.
    Last edited by PeterB; 08-29-2011 at 08:48 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    5. Plan to use one of your predetermined development procedures, and apply any needed EI changes to the meter (for instance, if you need N-2 processing, you may need to increase your EI a bit)
    That was a typo. I meant to say decrease.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #40
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    If you place your shadows on Zone IV, even Zone 0 will fully separate.

    And if that isn't good enough reason, it will help those cases where you saved the testing for last, played with some seriously out-of-date film, shot a questionably-lit subject and/or ran a few more square inches through your developer than you should.

    Why didn't I think of that earlier when I sneered at Bruce's advice and placed my shadows on Zone II.

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