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  1. #51
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baachitraka View Post
    - Take a shot

    - Develop negative.

    - Decide the print ..., N-1, N, N+1, ...
    It's a bit late to decide N-1, N or N+1 after development.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by erick View Post
    Maybe I was looking for something too scientific, in fact. But I guess the average system will work in most of the cases. Only through massive experimentation it is possible to have a more accurate control over the final result.
    Hi erick,

    What I meant in the last step... it is up to the artist to decide what looks good on the print. All the labwork up to that point is meant to give you a good negative. Some scientists say a negative with a slightly longer density range than the paper is recommended, then they qualify that by saying the final decision up to you.

  3. #53

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    In many discussions about zone system that I have seen (including this thread), it seems that the starting point is to meter the important shadow and reduce exposure by 2 stops. So this implicitly indicates that one is using a reflective meter on camera. A handheld meter only tells the exposure of 18% gray. If you put a handheld meter in front of an important shadow area and take the reading, you cannot simply reduce the exposure by 2 stops. Imagine that we have a scene that includes a building under sunlight. The shadow of the building include some light, grey, and dark objects. If one takes a reading of the shadow with a handheld meter, and reduces the exposure by 2 stops, it means that the grey objects in shadow are put in zone III, and any objects darker than grey are lost. But if one uses a reflective meter and takes a reading of the dark objects in the shadow, that becomes a different story. I guess my questions is how much shadow details does one want to preserve then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Hi newtorf,

    Zone System is meant to be used with a handheld meter! So just describe your meter or tell what model it is and someone here can tell you how to use it with the Zone System. Many of them work with a sticker that you can make yourself.

    Spotmeters are best but if it is not a spotmeter, then you can walk right up to the thing you are metering and read very close to it (try not to put your shadow in the meter reading).

    ps welcome erick and newtorf!

  4. #54
    PDH
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtorf View Post
    In many discussions about zone system that I have seen (including this thread), it seems that the starting point is to meter the important shadow and reduce exposure by 2 stops. So this implicitly indicates that one is using a reflective meter on camera. A handheld meter only tells the exposure of 18% gray. If you put a handheld meter in front of an important shadow area and take the reading, you cannot simply reduce the exposure by 2 stops. Imagine that we have a scene that includes a building under sunlight. The shadow of the building include some light, grey, and dark objects. If one takes a reading of the shadow with a handheld meter, and reduces the exposure by 2 stops, it means that the grey objects in shadow are put in zone III, and any objects darker than grey are lost. But if one uses a reflective meter and takes a reading of the dark objects in the shadow, that becomes a different story. I guess my questions is how much shadow details does one want to preserve then.
    Which is why some folks have migrated to Phil Davis's Beyond the Zone System and rely on an incadient meter. I use a modified Zone System for sheet film so I dont have much experaince with Davis's system but much of the work I have seen is quite good. I think both are very useful and have strong and weak points, what works, works.

  5. #55

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    Think of the Zone system this way. You're supplying Procrustes with an adjustable bed.

  6. #56
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtorf View Post
    If one takes a reading of the shadow with a handheld meter, and reduces the exposure by 2 stops, it means that the grey objects in shadow are put in zone III, and any objects darker than grey are lost.
    This is exactly what you want. The shadow is not the main part of the picture so you push it down into darker shades of gray. Expect the shadow to become almost black on the print.

    On the print, within the shadow (that you pushed down to Zone III dark gray) are some medium grays and some pitch black. That is the texture. If you look close at shadow on the print you will see what's going on. But if it was the main subject people would tell you it's too dark.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by E. von Hoegh View Post
    Think of the Zone system this way. You're supplying Procrustes with an adjustable bed.
    Good one! I guess that's why we use an ancient number system.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Good one! I guess that's why we use an ancient number system.
    I always wondered how poor old Procrustes ever had sex.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtorf View Post
    In many discussions about zone system that I have seen (including this thread), it seems that the starting point is to meter the important shadow and reduce exposure by 2 stops. So this implicitly indicates that one is using a reflective meter on camera. A handheld meter only tells the exposure of 18% gray. If you put a handheld meter in front of an important shadow area and take the reading, you cannot simply reduce the exposure by 2 stops. Imagine that we have a scene that includes a building under sunlight. The shadow of the building include some light, grey, and dark objects. If one takes a reading of the shadow with a handheld meter, and reduces the exposure by 2 stops, it means that the grey objects in shadow are put in zone III, and any objects darker than grey are lost. But if one uses a reflective meter and takes a reading of the dark objects in the shadow, that becomes a different story. I guess my questions is how much shadow details does one want to preserve then.
    Unless I misunderstand you, it sounds to me like your hand-held meter is an incident light meter. Not all hand-held meters are incident light meters - they also can be reflected light meters which is what we're talking about here. Ideally a spot meter is best for the Zone system as you can't always walk up to your shadowed object to meter it - for example a landscape scene.
    Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;None but ourselves can free our minds. - Bob Marley

  10. #60
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    Cheers for all the info, very help full ..

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