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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
    If you're adjusting the exposure, then yes, you could need to make adjustments in the processing of the film.
    Please explain. I think an example of the scenario the OP had in mind was shooting snow scenes, for example. Meter normally, open 2 stops and shoot... or set the exposure compensation +2, meter normally and shoot. Why adjust processing -- that defeats the purpose of compensating for that purpose. Most people don't meter roll film and develop like one does sheet film using zone system, or beyond zone system, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood the question... I'm getting a bit confused with the 18% chatter. Most 35mm shooting can probably be accomplished with B&W or color neg by simply setting the camera to "A" and concentrating on the image vs the exposure.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by laroygreen View Post
    Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
    You have to decide where to place values in your negative. You find a value, decide what zone it will occupy in your negative, and then adjust your exposure to achieve the results you wish. If you want shadows in a particular zone, you find the shadows you want, meter them, drop down the required number of stops from "middle gray", and trip the shutter.

    With some of that extra cash you're going to have, buy some used copies of those books and decipher the basic system.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    Please explain.
    If you're pushing film, for example, or rating it at some other speed...you have to figure out your film in your camera and then determine what development gives you the look you want. I rate Tri-X at 160 in almost all of my cameras (except one where it's closer to 200) and I usually develop for 5:30 in 1:16 HC-110, etc, etc. Sometimes it's rated at 1600, though, when I'm using Diafine. All I was saying is that yes, you might have to alter your processing depending on what you are doing. This is why I suggested the books.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by laroygreen View Post
    When metering with an old SLR, if the meter indicator is very simple, such as a green dot that lights up when 18% grey is properly exposed, but I know that my scene is say 1 stop above or below 18% grey, could I turn the ISO knob to a lower ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) or a higher ISO (for 1 stop above 18%) when metering additional similar scenes (rather than having to adjust my shutter speed/aperture to hit 18% grey and then adjusting to 1 stop below or above that)? Not sure if I'm clear (probably not), but hopefully I am.

    Also, say I decide to meter something that is 2 stop above 18% grey as 18% grey, do I need to do any special adjustments when developing and would I notice any ill effects such as additional grain?
    If you want to overexpose a scene by 1 stop consistently, you can adjust the FG's compensation control by 1 stop or adjust the ISO by 1 stop. This way when you adjust shutter speed or aperture to 18% grey, your film will be overexposed by 1 stop. You can then have it push processed by 1 stop to normalize your film's results. Generally speaking, most color negative can tolerate quite a few stops overexposure before it is noticeable as in my previous example of latitude. Also, most negatives can tolerate 1 or 2 stops underexposure.The effect of underexposure is exaggerated grain while overexposure will lessen it.

    If you rate the film higher - say ISO 100 as 200, you can then push process once to normalize it. Opposite is pull processing. I understand that push processing makes film more contrasty. A colleague of mine push processed ISO 100 Kodak TMAX100 to ISO 3200 and the results of developing was quite good. OTOH, I push processed Fuji Provia 400 to 3200 and the results were highly exaggerated grain.

    I suggest you download the manuals for the cameras you are considering although they are all very similar. Most 80's cameras generally have all the same facilities varying only in manual/aperture priority autoexposure capabilities (aperture, shutter and program) as well as changeable screens/viewfinders and MLU. More importantly, you need to understand how your camera's meter works as well as how your choice of film behaves.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by laroygreen View Post
    The reason I asked, is that on a modern DSLR, you have a scale bar, that shows you how much over/under you are in relation to 18% grey. With older SLRs, I suspect you wouldn't know how much over/under you are, so you would essentially zero the meter on whatever you are metering on, and then increase/decrease to suit the true tonality(?) of what you are metering.

    I know its been said in this thread that film has a wide latitude and can tolerate over/under exposure by multiple stops, but this question is mainly out of curiosity (plus I like to meter properly as best as I can just to avoid issues down the road).

    Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
    With the FG, the LED's will tell you what it believes is 18% grey. If you adjust the shutter, aperture, compensation or ISO, the lower or higher LEDs will tell you by how much.

    This is the full range of over and under exposure I get with Kodak Portra 400. Every film will have their own characteristics for this as well as how they handle various lights and you will have to learn each to make the most of it.



    Link to larger version -> Kodak Portra 400 latitude

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by laroygreen View Post
    I know its been said in this thread that film has a wide latitude and can tolerate over/under exposure by multiple stops, but this question is mainly out of curiosity (plus I like to meter properly as best as I can just to avoid issues down the road).

    Does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
    Laroy, no offense intended... but I think perhaps you are indeed missing something -- the basics. You may be overcomplicating things. You seem to have a good understanding of some of the elements to consider, but it is really difficult sometimes to put it together into meaningful practice. When using roll film most folks don't really work in accordance with a Zone System-like workflow. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you have previously written, but the impression I have is that you are thinking in those terms.

    Generally one sets the ISO for box speed so that the camera can meter for that film accurately. It is up to the camera's metering system how well it does that, partly based on the scene and partly based on the meter design. As you seem to know some cameras are "spot" and others are "averaging" and others are "center weighted" and others are "matrix" (or some other trade name for a more complicated metering algorithm that weights for better expopsrues under various scene types when camera is set to "A"). With a Nikon center-weighted meter (the type on FE, FM, F3, and others), one can very often just set to "A" and get good shots a very high proportion of the time. Alternatively, one can manually meter to whatever is "normal" and do good. For beach or snow one would need to compensate the exposrue by +1 or +2 stops, say, to get a good image becuase those are one of the times when the meter "gets fooled". In pitch black one might need to compesate in the other direction. That can be done by changing the ISO setting, or using hte exposrue compensation feature that Nikon generally provides.

    Here is my suggestion for getting a grip on the basics of metering and exposure: Google "Perfect Exposure" by Roger Hicks. That book is available for $0.99 + $3.99 shipping from several reliable book sellers. It is a great resource for learning both basics, and adjustments to the basics of photographic exposure.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowner View Post
    If you're pushing film, for example, or rating it at some other speed...
    OK, understood. I don't think that is what he was talking about though. I could be wrong. If pushing or pulling is the intent youa re absolutely correct. Thanks.

  8. #108

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    Here's one for Kodak BW400CN . . .



    Link to larger version -> Kodak BW400CN Exposure

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    BUt often you cannot change SS because you'll fall below safe handheld (1/60) speed, and you may be at your lens limit with regards to aperture, or for aesthetic composition reasons aperture change is off-limits. At that point EV via ISO is all that's left. As I wrote earlier, the standalone EV dial is more of a shortcut to ISO adjustment than the other 2 of the triangle. Of course one must be wary of the exposure latitude of film. From the evolution of my camera's the EV dial started as an ISO shortcut, but then on some models could be changed to alter SS or AV on electronic cameras (and digital; my DSLR allows for either SS or Av priority for EV with ISO handled separately).

    Just going to the OP's question, you can adjust your ISO per shot for the desired EV compensation. That's what my Minolta manual says to do as it has no EV dial. My Pentax model of the same era has an EV dial which effectively alters the exposure by changing the ISO setting from the metered reading. It's a human derived, subjective override.
    If you do not want to alter the shutter speed or aperture you simply can not change the amount of exposure. Changing ISO on a film camera often is not an option because you have to do that for the entire roll of film and then do push or pull processing which significantly compromise the quality of your pictures.

  10. #110

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    It is no wonder that some folks get up in arms when their favorite film is revised or done away with as they have to relearn the characteristics of different film and there is so much to know about it - grain structure, sharpness, resolution, contrast, reaction to various types of lights and many more that I haven't even began to appreciate but it sure is fun learning it . . .



 

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