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  1. #31

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    Same here. Kertesz was a poet. Avedon was a self-image marketer.

  2. #32
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    hi drew

    sorry to ask this, but for anyone in the "advertising or art world"
    they have to be a hardcore self promoter ..

    what is the different between what avedon did
    and any artist who happened to do advertising work ?
    karsh, dr seus, adams, kasoff, sexton, schwab, metzner
    or anyone else who does or has done illustration or photography on assignment
    and that "aesthetic" seeps into their - art - ...

    avedon brought things to fashion photography that didn't exist before him
    and his portraits as well ...

    i can see not liking his work because of the way he might have treated
    his models (american west series) or not liking him because of the
    way he acted in realife but your critique of him and his work
    seems a little over the top, almost like suggesting he was a hack
    who didn't deserve (whatever that means) success.
    Last edited by jnanian; 06-13-2014 at 05:02 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    hi drew

    sorry to ask this, but for anyone in the "art world"
    they have to be a hardcore self promoter ..
    Van Gogh wasn't.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  4. #34
    jnanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Van Gogh wasn't.
    no, he wasn't and while there are some examples of people
    who did not promote themselves and lived in poverty like van gogh (and are "undiscovered")
    ... and at every turn in their life they received rejection there are other times where this really isn't the case.
    people often times go to extremes to get their foot in the door, lie about themselves (frank lloyd wright ) and promote endlessly.

    i know of someone who walks down the street and hands business cards to every person
    (even babies in carriages ) he sees.

  5. #35
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    John, I think the distinctive difference is those you mention who do advertising work and therefore are commercially orientated as opposed to those who just wish to produce their own art.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Van Gogh wasn't.
    That's why his work did not sell while he lived.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dismayed View Post
    That's why his work did not sell while he lived.
    And your point related to the validity of his art is?

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  8. #38

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    Kertesz famously called him a "zero", which is even worse than calling him a hack, and refused to allow the Met show his own work because they had shown Avedon there. Some photographers live double lives. They know how to do commerical work, but they also know the distinction between this and personal photography. Even Edward Weston supported himself most of the time with a basic portrait studio, and most of those shots are worth quite little today, in contrast to the staggering sums paid for vintage prints of his personal projects. Same with AA. I guess it just depends on your philosophy. I know how to take a shot for a client. But I also consider my personal work to be all about helping people see things they never would, or in a way they never would. I detest "gotcha" ad images for other than ad work. For example, I just unpacked my 8x10 last weekend at the start of the trail at a very crowded beach parking lot visited by thousands of tourists a year. Normally I just get out of Dodge fast, hike past everyone, and find some solitude. But I'll be danged if I didn't see an incredible composition just a few yards away. So to heck with it. Up goes my camera. But I'll bet not one person of the thousand potentially walking right past that very spot this summer even see - or even point a camera that direction. A few did take pictures of me and my camera, all
    in a polite manner. But they had no idea what my camera was doing propped up there. They didn't see anything at all. Sometimes people do
    wait and ask permission to look into my groundglass after I take the shot. I try to accommodate them; and even though it's an upside-down
    image, it's still a revelation to most of them. But images that just smash you in the face for an instant like a Bozo the Clown pie... those should be left on billboard or websites or whatever...

  9. #39
    jnanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Kertesz famously called him a "zero", which is even worse than calling him a hack, and refused to allow the Met show his own work because they had shown Avedon there. Some photographers live double lives. They know how to do commerical work, but they also know the distinction between this and personal photography. Even Edward Weston supported himself most of the time with a basic portrait studio, and most of those shots are worth quite little today, in contrast to the staggering sums paid for vintage prints of his personal projects. Same with AA. I guess it just depends on your philosophy. I know how to take a shot for a client. But I also consider my personal work to be all about helping people see things they never would, or in a way they never would. I detest "gotcha" ad images for other than ad work. For example, I just unpacked my 8x10 last weekend at the start of the trail at a very crowded beach parking lot visited by thousands of tourists a year. Normally I just get out of Dodge fast, hike past everyone, and find some solitude. But I'll be danged if I didn't see an incredible composition just a few yards away. So to heck with it. Up goes my camera. But I'll bet not one person of the thousand potentially walking right past that very spot this summer even see - or even point a camera that direction. A few did take pictures of me and my camera, all
    in a polite manner. But they had no idea what my camera was doing propped up there. They didn't see anything at all. Sometimes people do
    wait and ask permission to look into my groundglass after I take the shot. I try to accommodate them; and even though it's an upside-down
    image, it's still a revelation to most of them. But images that just smash you in the face for an instant like a Bozo the Clown pie... those should be left on billboard or websites or whatever...
    sorry drew
    but i can't make any sense out of any of your post at all.

    and unfortunately your website has nothing recent so i ( and no one else ) can't even
    refer to what you might be talking about ... "gotcha" bozo pie in the face ?
    Last edited by jnanian; 06-13-2014 at 08:25 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by falotico View Post
    For MM fans: here is a Cibachrome enlargement from a Kodachrome which was originally taken c. 1946. Marilyn is in her early 20's and has not been in any movies. She has not yet bleached her hair, nor acquired the beauty mark on her cheek.Attachment 89483
    I get a feed of pinup pictures on my facebook from time to time. Quite often, they are of MM, but from her Norma Jean period. I find those images very intriguing and they add another level of complexity to her character.
    If you get a chance, check out my new Facebook Page, Kustoms On Silver!

    Hoffy's Flickr Photostream (Not quite analog Only, but nearly!)

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