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  1. #41
    jnanian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    John, I think the distinctive difference is those you mention who do advertising work and therefore are commercially orientated as opposed to those who just wish to produce their own art.
    hi clive

    sorry i missed this last night when you posted it ...

    if you produce your own art to be sold in some way shape or form it is a commercial endeavor, isn't it ?
    in a lot of cases, especially in this day and age, the line between "personal art work" or " producing one's own artwork"
    and doing commercial ( artwork for commerce/illustration, advertising/editorial work &c ) is blurred.
    it isn't hard to go to places like the alternative pick and thumb through the photographers' work there
    and see their art and commercial work is often similar or the same, one feeds the other.
    there is a difference between hcb, street, journalist, architectural, grand landscape, and portrait+fashion photographers.
    and the argument that photographing a stylized portrait of someone infront of a backdrop is a technical skill ... so is
    arresting a moment in time, or photographing a pepper to look like a female nude, or making any sort of portrait, or processing film, or making a print

    there really isn't much of a difference that i can see, other than some people are self promoters and some people would rather a different life.
    and because they are self promoters they are a gimmick ...
    how many photographers these days offer workshops for hundreds or thousands of dollars a person for a weekend,
    isn't that a self-promotion-gimmick too?

  2. #42
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    Intersting argument about the artist-promoter in the previous posts; while reading them the first artist to come to mind was Dali.
    "The real work was thinking, just thinking." - Charles Chaplin

  3. #43
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurisrey View Post
    Intersting argument about the artist-promoter in the previous posts; while reading them the first artist to come to mind was Dali.
    And what a promoter he was.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  4. #44
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    And how does one get discovered if they don't self promote?
    If you get a chance, check out my new Facebook Page, Kustoms On Silver!

    Hoffy's Flickr Photostream (Not quite analog Only, but nearly!)

  5. #45

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    Bad comparison. Dali could really really paint. His brushwork was remarkable, his draftsmanship remarkable, his creativity too. Was he an actual
    nut, or was that just part of his marketing personna? I suspect some of both. He was borderline just plain crooked when he signed hundred of
    blank sheet of paper which hadn't even been printed on yet. Of course, a lot of those posters of his works (which is all they really were) suckered a lot of dumb investors. Most of them weren't even worth the frames they put in. ... wholesale cost around fifteen or twenty bucks
    apiece, run in editions of tens of thousands sometimes. But what inspired that level of greed I'd don't know. He was already filthy rich from
    the painting themselves and privately commissioned paintings. But he was a genius. Avedon... I just see him as a clever fashion photographer
    pulling some stunts. The concept of "creativity" in the 60's with "Pop Art" and all that was basically poking fun at the system anyway. But
    now it's become the stale old regime itself, and I'm damn tired of it. As far as pictures of Marilyn are involved, well probably anyone could have gotten a good shot of her. I'm reminded of the official royal portrait Annie L. took of Queen E. I was so formulaic and scripted that any
    competent commercial photographer could have done it. Same with AA's official portrait of Jimmy Carter. By contrast, last night I was looking
    at Julia Cameron's portraits. Today the pictures of some of her otherwise unknown servant are worth even more than her portraits of very
    famous people, cause of the look. Avedon fed on celebrity. His "American West" pictures look like a bug collection, stereotypes made for his
    NYC audience. And that bee guy, or Natasha with the Snake.... corneee, corneeeee, corneeeeeeee.

  6. #46
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Was Julia Cameron into self promotion?

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  7. #47

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    She didn't need to be a self-promoter. Fully frumpy Victorian society. People were either born or married into the upper crust social circles or weren't. Lords n' Ladies. One of the posters on both this forum and the LFF lives on the same island, and recently told me her "house" has been made into a museum, with her prints on display. I got curious and found a picture of that "house" in one of my photo books. Let's just say she was rather well off financially. More like what most of us would classify as a mansion.

  8. #48
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Her house was no mansion, I've been there and I'm sure Steve will verify this.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  9. #49

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    I'm referring to the house she lived in. I don't know what remaining portion of it has been dedicated to the museum. For all I know, that could likely be the original "chicken house" where she did her photography. The contemporaneous photographs of their estate show something downright huge. They held substantial parties there for wealthy folk, who she then leveraged one by one into a sitting in the "chicken coop". Not a cottage by any means. Just look at her subjects. Some very famous people. We have analogous situations around here, where the rich and famous own mere barns far more opulent than the houses of even the average rich person. Twenty million dollars of race horses on the
    ground floor, fifteen guest rooms in the top floor.

  10. #50
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    hi Drew,

    Yes, Dali could paint, no doubt about it. His early still lifes are amazing. His name just happen to pop in to my head when reading the previous posts. Perhaps it was this [not only being extremely good at what he did] but also his promotion techniques that made him a household name. Otherwise, he walked the talk and talked the walk.
    "The real work was thinking, just thinking." - Charles Chaplin

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