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  1. #11
    roteague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Schrager
    Well done Mr. Cardell! If only some would be photographers actually took the time to find out what the materials will bring them then their success rate would go up incremently. Wasn't it Adams who said that after 10.000 negatives you start to become an artist? Try it and see.....
    Peter
    Does that mean if you shoot transparencies you can't be an artist?
    Robert M. Teague
    www.visionlandscapes.com
    www.apug.org/forums/portfolios.php?u=2235

    "A man who works with his hands is a laborer; a man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman; a man who works with his hands and his brain and his heart is an artist" -- Louis Nizer

  2. #12
    BradS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roteague
    Personally, I would take a Dykinga over an Adams.

    Me too.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    That is the transformation point, and that, to a photographer, is what Organic Chemistry is to a Pre Med Student
    .
    A bit off topic but worth relating.

    When I was in college they had to offer a dumbed down version of organic chemistry specifically for the pre med students. Evidently they were incapable of passing the course offered for chemists and engineers.

    Sort of frightening in a way when you think about it. Here are people who will be holding patients lives in their hands and they can't pass organic chemistry.

  4. #14
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roteague
    ... snip...

    FWIW, I find the focus of your topic very narrow. Black & White photography, Zone System, BTSZ - while all well and good, they do not define the extent of fine art photography. There are many fine color photographers.
    Quite right !

    FWIW, it was hard to keep it focused: it began in response to another B&W thread, and I hadn't remembered to mention a connection ! Thanks.

    [COLOR=Blue] http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/22049-negative-appendix-2-film-test-data-testing.html [/COLOR]
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  5. #15

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    Well I know that I meant no slight to photographers working in color and I do posess a great appreciation of their work. Color work is equally, though differently, as visual and as technical. Certainly I much appreciate the color work of Elliot Porter, Ernst Haas. Robert Marplethorpe has do some work in color that I have seen that is outstanding. This is intended as an enlargement of Robert's list of photographers working in color. Some of the color advertisments done during the 20's and 30's are both technical and visual triumphs made using 3 color carbon. There is, I believe, some photographersworkers still working in a completely analoug 3 color carbon. Sorry am I that I can not even aspire to be their equal.
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

  6. #16
    David Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    [color=blue]...[/color] whether one wants to be a musician, a doctor, an engineer, or a guitarmaker, sooner or later one has to learn the craft ...
    ... and then practice, practice, practice!

    I own many of the books, and have read a lot more. There is no panacea for me in any of them. A little ZS, a little BZTS, a little BS ...

    VC paper wasn't "the answer". "Improved" films, no. "Classic" films, ditto. A different type enlarger head, split grade, water baths ...

    (and fancy timer is on the way )

    However, making MORE pictures does more for me than anything. Don't get me wrong, I am a fundementals evangelist. No technique and nothing happens. But once fundamentals are mastered, there's a lot of film still to be burned to find the "IT".

    Techniques are tools. Tools facilitate making something, they are not the end themselves.

    Cheers, y'all.

    David

  7. #17

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    Lets add to the story of St. Ansel and the group 64 a little bit. I have recently became aware of Mortinson, better known as Adams nemesis. A truly great photographer. How come he is never on the most list of great photographers? It's because Ansel and group 64 actively suppressed him and pictorial photography in general. To promote your style is one thing, to suppress a different one is just plain wrong. What was Ansel afraid of?
    I still give Ansel all the credit he is due. If it wasn't for his endeavors, a lot of the places we love to shoot might not be there. I've shot zone for over 30 years. I am now exploring BTZS. Ansel is great but he ain't no Brett Weston. I still admire Ansel and his work, but he has lost his sainthood in my book.

  8. #18
    MenacingTourist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vet173
    I have recently became aware of Mortinson, better known as Adams nemesis. A truly great photographer. How come he is never on the most list of great photographers?
    I "discovered" Mortinson some time ago on another forum. His work really knocks my socks off. I can't guess why he's not more popular because I have odd tastes. Adams to me is like Picasso and I'm tired of seeing and hearing about both of them. There was a time where Picasso was everywhere and it really drove me nuts. Adams, for me, is starting to get there. I guess when you're beat over the head with something it stops being special.

    Don't get me wrong, they both are great, but I prefer a buffet style. That's why Mortinson and Meatyard are so fascinating to me. It's a different set of sensibilities that isn't so "popular".

    Alan.

  9. #19
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    The gist of this is not to do with whether Ansel, or Bill Mortensen or whomever was any good, it was to compare Adams to Weston ( friends ) and to point out how Adams found his own way to make the pictures he wanted to make.

    Today, one is generally not taken seriously by a large portion of photographers if one doesn't own a densitometer. Which points out how far things have drifted from the days when a fully intuitive approach was the norm.

    If there was a problem back in the 1910s,1920s, and 1930s, it was too much vision and too little technique. Adams helped balance that, besides paving the way for analytical types to find a way to make their own pictures.

    Nobody has had better, or more effective technique than Edw Weston, but his approach is laughed away ( at least at APUG ! ) by those who take a technical position on photography that would skewer Adams for being unscientific.

    What lesson there is to be taken is that there is a suitable way for anybody to make good pictures, and no single System, Method, or School works for more than about 30% of the population.

    So, if your seat of the pants method doesn't work, look at The New Zone System Manual by White, Zakia, and Lorenz. If BTZS gives you perfectly made pictures that look like somebody else made 'em, try something else. Push the envelope. Play.

    For that matter, taken with a little salt, Bill Mortensen's "The Negative" is very interesting, and suggests an important concept 21st System Shooters miss all too often, and that is aiming for the middle of the usable range of a negative rather than at the 'perfect' minimum exposure results in more superb pictures on the wall, and less wasted time in the field. It is forgotten today, but essential in those old days when a light meter was an unproven new device.

    .
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  10. #20

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    I think that it is very constricted to compare Adams and Weston on the basis of technique alone. There is the matter of vision in addition to technique.

    Adams took photographs of found scenes in nature...quite easy to do. Given a tank full of gas and enough time spent in the wilderness those scenes appear to anyone.

    Weston explored form and relationships of forms...requires a lot more awareness, in my opinion.

    Visualization as it is applied to Adams is about relegating and portraying tonal values within the limits of materials.

    Visualization as it applies to Weston is the ability to perceive relationships between shapes, lines, forms.

    Technique between the two artists is markedly different. Weston was able to portray tonal balance as well as Adams...perhaps even better. Adams could not see as well as Weston, in my opinion.

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