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  1. #21
    rfshootist's Avatar
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    Michael[/QUOTE]
    If one believes that photography is an art then one might wish that the photographer was the sole participant in the production from concept through to the production of the print.


    That is your personal wish but most pros have another point of view. To me this does not sound logic either and real life has proven and still proves the opposite.

    I've observed the precise dialog between Nachtwey and his printer, he has a clear imagination of how his pics shall look and he kows what can be done and how it can be done and what role does it play then who presses the buttons ?

    What has this kinda outsourcing to do with art or no-art ? Is there a tacit assumption that those who prefer print outsourcing could not do the printing themselves ? That they give their negs to a printer and take what he delivers ? This has nothing to do with the real life.

    But even if this would be true, in this case one has to face that printing itself does not produce any kinda art. The art is in the source. The print is the craft which makes it perceivable, it isn't the art itself. A printer is an artist only when he prints art, not because he is printing !

    If you'd learn that H. C.-B. hasn't printed ever his photos would you then
    seriously find his work artistically less worth than you found it before ?

    bertram
    A la recherche du temps perdu: www. bersac.de

  2. #22

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    You could go ad nauseum with this type of thinking. Wet-plate guys could accuse us film shooters of not creating our own emulsions, so we aren't artists.
    Perhaps we should be digging up our own silver ore and making everything from scratch.

  3. #23

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    E

    Quote Originally Posted by david b
    Mapplethorp[SIZE=4]E[/SIZE]
    Mapplethorpeeeeeeeee
    Sorry!

  4. #24
    blansky's Avatar
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    I do, absolutely, understand the real world. I realize that when Annie Leibowitz works she has a staff of 6-10 people who design, art direct, light, and print her work. Is it still her work? I guess so.

    As for your HCB example, I love his work. BUT any photographer who is capable of producing it from beginning to end, I would definitely respect more.

    As for the printing aspects. If a photographer is a very capable printer, then has someone else (another printer) follow his direction because he is too old, too busy, etc I don't really have a problem with.

    But if he can't print and someone else is intrepreting and printing his work, it loses some of its value, TO ME.

    None of this means that I don't respect their work, I just have more respect if their hands were on it.

    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfshootist
    [I]Michael
    If you'd learn that H. C.-B. hasn't printed ever his photos would you then
    seriously find his work artistically less worth than you found it before ?

    bertram[/QUOTE]

    Actually, in the beginning HC-B did all of his own darkroom work, including printing. Then, later, when he was traveling the world so much, he developed his own film (Using Harold Harvey's Panthermic 777, I believe). Prints from those negatives were made later by Pierre Gassman's lab. It is variously reported that the negatives could be printed straight, or that they were really terrible requiring master printers to get anything usable out of them.
    Personally, I think that there should be different expectations from a working photographer, and a "fine-arts" photographer.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by avandesande
    You could go ad nauseum with this type of thinking. Wet-plate guys could accuse us film shooters of not creating our own emulsions, so we aren't artists.
    Perhaps we should be digging up our own silver ore and making everything from scratch.
    A bit extreme.

    Why is it that when a Rembrandt is for sale it is worth millions and when somone copied it and most experts couldn't tell the difference, that it is virtually worthless.

    Because people want the work of who is advertised.

    If someones assistant produces a product, is it worth the same as the master?

    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  7. #27
    blansky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell
    If you'd learn that H. C.-B. hasn't printed ever his photos would you then
    seriously find his work artistically less worth than you found it before ?

    bertram
    Yes.

    Slightly less.


    Michael
    I couldn't think of anything witty to say so I left this blank.

  8. #28

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    I appreciate the artistic creation of the composer when I attend a classical music concert. And I appreciate the artistic interpretation of the orchestra and composer. They each perform different roles, both of which are important in providing an experience.

    Robert

  9. #29

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    Oops. Should read "orchestra and conductor."

    Robert

  10. #30

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    Cartier-Bresson was, and Nachtwey is, a journalist. They shot for publication. The subject matter of their photography, the nuance of the subject's expression or the circumstance being photographed was the purpose. Their work has been exalted as art but, I believe, they did not present themselves as artists--except for HCB and his sketches. MapplethorpE, presented himself as an artist.

    If you create artwork and present it as art, I believe it should be your work. Even if the technical quality of the print is less than perfect, a piece of art actually made by the hand of the artist should be worth more than one made by a technician.

    Considering Annie Liebovitz and her entourage of assistants involved in the production of her photographs, who really is the artist? Did Matthew Brady ever make any photographs himself during the Civil War or was it only his hired help doing the photography while he took the credit? Is it enough just to push the button or own the camera? So it goes.

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