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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    As always, it's about the printing stage and those people who are simply scanning just can't wrap their heads around it.
    I've always thought that about Michael Kenna's work, the "X plus Y and, bingo'. When I was shooting in the past (70s) I intentionally avoided looking at the work of other photographers as much as possible for fear that I would simply copy them. Or try to. There was so much great and different stuff out there, especially from Japan. It was alluring, if not genuinely mine.

    What eventually became what I called my 'style' I owed as much to my not knowing what the hell I was doing as to any pompous magical vision I thought I was on to. Trying to find some sort of 'look' again and this many years later it's pointless to look at the old developing and printing notes and think I can just whip up some duplicates. It's all new, and ready for fresh mistakes.

    s-a

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by semi-ambivalent View Post
    I've always thought that about Michael Kenna's work, the "X plus Y and, bingo'. When I was shooting in the past (70s) I intentionally avoided looking at the work of other photographers as much as possible for fear that I would simply copy them. Or try to. There was so much great and different stuff out there, especially from Japan. It was alluring, if not genuinely mine.

    What eventually became what I called my 'style' I owed as much to my not knowing what the hell I was doing as to any pompous magical vision I thought I was on to. Trying to find some sort of 'look' again and this many years later it's pointless to look at the old developing and printing notes and think I can just whip up some duplicates. It's all new, and ready for fresh mistakes.

    s-a
    You are definitely on to something semi-ambivalent. I think the bland nature of photography today is a result of the lack of isolation. One can see everything by everybody and it influences the images one makes. When I started photography I didn't know anyone that did it. There was no internet. Books were few and far in between. The result was that I made horrible negatives. The upside though is that it made me a good printer. I learned everything by trial and error. There is something to be said for that. Once I learned it all though I realized that I needed to forget it too.

    From what I can recall about Gibson's methods of developing, and they aren't a magic bullet, he mixes Rodinal in the tank and he uses a specific amount of Rodinal for each roll of film. I do recall a comment he made that he likes a meaty negative. This is evidenced in his prints.

    I have seen quite a few of these threads over the years. Gibson gets the look he does by many factors, not just the development of the film. He chooses the light that he likes which no one talks about. He also exposes for the highlights which dumps the shadows into solid black in a print. That is the opposite of the holy grail of rules for photography. Just go to show that rules are for those with no imagination.

  3. #13
    Colin Corneau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    ... pure whites , pure blacks and pure grain at dark greys.
    When it comes to recent times , this is somehow lost.
    ...
    Says who?
    "Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away and you've got their shoes."

    MY BLOG - www.reservedatalltimes.com
    YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THIS SITE - www.colincorneau.com
    INSTAGRAM: colincorneau

  4. #14
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    The one thing many photographers have a hard time understanding (or simply ignore), is that an image starts in the mind. Vision, creativity and inspiration start with our eyes and mind, with the process simply delivering the goods. Gibson's images are always stark, high contrast, deep blacks/strong whites, because that's how he sees. He photographs situations in light that reflects his vision of things. It's not Tri-X + Rodinal delivering those images, or Agfa paper. He could have done the same using HP5 + DDX...it doesn't matter, because it would still be Ralph Gibson.
    The only advantage of mastering a process, any process, being one film + 1 developer for the rest of your life, in camera metering, zone system, BTZS, etc, is the indisputable fact that from that moment on, one need only to concern him/herself with nurturing the creative aspect, vision, learning to see, being more receptive, etc. Process is not there to get in the way but only to facilitate the delivery of a good print. So, for anyone interested in exploring the Ralph Gibson's look, by no means get some Tri-X + Rodinal and experiment with it for a year. Print on some hard grade paper and see if you like the look. At the end of the day though, it will be the images that count because a crappy photograph that is developed/printed cookbook Ralph Gibson style, will still be a crappy photograph...which, by the way, applies to Ralph Gibson himself, as not all of his photographs are masterpieces.
    Last edited by MaximusM3; 09-29-2011 at 08:59 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #15

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    [QUOTE][Gibson's images are always stark, high contrast, deep blacks/strong whites, because that's how he sees./QUOTE]

    This is so important; seeing. I'm trying to look through the viewfinder and deconstruct what I see into just geometric shapes. This is hard because our brains use the eyes to pull information out of a scene, not ignore it, and film and lenses are sold on their ability to resolve ever greater detail. Look at Kertesz's Martinique, it's a geometric masterpiece. There's a Winogrand of a Western suburban house where the garage door is a gaping black square.

    I'm trying to see those shapes and then learn to 'let in' only the detail I want. Just enough to anchor it to this world. I'm seeing a lot of trash frames (Kodak thanks me, I'm sure) but occasionally there's a glimmer that I might be making some progress. And I'm having as much fun as I did the first time around.

  6. #16
    Jerevan's Avatar
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    I agree with the above sentiments. Anyone can point you in a direction, but you still have to walk there by yourself so to speak. And maybe Gibson started out his journey with normal negatives and then found his own way towards the overexposed, overdeveloped negatives on hard grade paper. I have a lot of overdeveloped and overexposed negatives, but for my life of me, I can't get them to work for me, because my whole process is geared towards something else, even if I really love Gibsons photographs. And that, I feel is a major point; it is a complete process, not a certain film or paper. And as it is a complete loop of things, there's always a way to calibrate that process with another paper or film, given you have the stamina to see it through.
    “Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.” - Lao Tzu

  7. #17
    Rick A's Avatar
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    It appears to me the point overlooked is the paper grade printed on. G-6(or 5) will render pure blacks crisp whites and whatever grays are left will appear somewhat grainy from a 35mm negative enlarged to 8x10. The shift from that look could be attributed to either nonexistance of the paper grade or the artist deliberatly changing his ideals for a softer look(most likely both). In my younger days, I loved hard contrast, it mimiced my life. Now that I am much older and mellower, I can appreciate the softer feel of a print that includes a fuller compliment of tones. Plus my shooting style has changed as I learned to expose properly(read-I slowed down and consider exposure as much as composition).
    Rick A
    Argentum aevum
    BTW: the big kid in my avatar is my hero, my son, who proudly serves us in the Navy. "SALUTE"

  8. #18
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    The one thing many photographers have a hard time understanding (or simply ignore), is that an image starts in the mind. Vision, creativity and inspiration start with our eyes and mind, with the process simply delivering the goods. Gibson's images are always stark, high contrast, deep blacks/strong whites, because that's how he sees. He photographs situations in light that reflects his vision of things. It's not Tri-X + Rodinal delivering those images, or Agfa paper. He could have done the same using HP5 + DDX...it doesn't matter, because it would still be Ralph Gibson.
    The only advantage of mastering a process, any process, being one film + 1 developer for the rest of your life, in camera metering, zone system, BTZS, etc, is the indisputable fact that from that moment on, one need only to concern him/herself with nurturing the creative aspect, vision, learning to see, being more receptive, etc. Process is not there to get in the way but only to facilitate the delivery of a good print. So, for anyone interested in exploring the Ralph Gibson's look, by no means get some Tri-X + Rodinal and experiment with it for a year. Print on some hard grade paper and see if you like the look. At the end of the day though, it will be the images that count because a crappy photograph that is developed/printed cookbook Ralph Gibson style, will still be a crappy photograph...which, by the way, applies to Ralph Gibson himself, as not all of his photographs are masterpieces.
    Albert Einstein said: "It's all in the mind".

    Ideas, vision, and channeling them into prints. There's a lot of things going on before the negative is even exposed, let alone developed, and ultimately printed. All those ideas of what the pictures should look like are infinitely more important than any material. As you say, it's about finding something that stops being an obstacle in the creative process, that makes it easy for the ideas to materialize.
    I like how clearly you think, and how good you are at eliminating BS, Massimo.

    - T
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  9. #19
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I take the liberty of making a quote, which speaks about getting to what's important. Simplicity is elegance. Simplicity fosters creativity; if we're forced to stop amassing wealth of materials, all we're left with is ideas.

    "The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak".

    - Hans Hofmann
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #20

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    I'm a new "old" photographer, having jumped back into the analog fray after 30+ years. I shot some Fomapan 400 (EI 200) and used Rodinal and, at least as far as the negative is concerned, I got that very grainy, sharp "look". This thread prompted me to look at Gibson's website. I had never seen his stuff before. My wife loves it - she loves the strong contrast. Having just recently gone in the other direction (using Perceptol and FP4 at EI 50), I find myself both put off by, and loving the grain and contrast of Gibson's prints. I plowed through his prints on the website - I think he's an artistic genius.

    So, I've loaded some tri-X in my old Nikormatt and will play with that.

    I love APUG and the educational and inspirational threads like these.
    Thanks!
    Jerry
    Warrenton. VA

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