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  1. #21

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    I've used Photo Formulary's B&W-65 and Agfa Neutol Plus both with good results on Kentmere Bromide. Azo & bromide papers are opposites as to grain structure (fine & coarse), so the bromide papers should yield a higher local contrast appearance.
    van Huyck Photo
    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"

  2. #22

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    Printing on AZO WOULD be more expensive, yes...but I suggest you give it a try and see how you like it. I know its a costly thing to try, but purchase one box of 20x24, the chemicals needed to mix Amidol developer (should be in stock with Artcraft Chemicals or Photographers Formulary by the time you get around to it) and give this wonderful combonation a try.

    In fact, a good experiment would be too print the same negative on the bromide paper, then print it again on the silver chloride paper. Not only will you have less burning/dodging to do, but you will notice a HUGE gain in sharpness and detail in the AZO print. The AZO print will have a richness and depth that you cannot achive in the bromide paper.

    So, just give it a try and print a few negatives. If you do not like it...I will purchase the paper and developer from you for the price you paid, minus what you used.

    Ryan McIntosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike A
    Hi Ryan,
    I'm shooting 11x14, yes I am aware that AZO is available in 20x24, this size dos not equate well for my format. I have considerd using the left over smaller pieces as a work print/test strips for each individual negative I start a printing.

    No I have not used AZO before nor have I contact printed any format above 4x5, so this is pretty new for me.

    The kentmere is going for $65.00 for 11x14 50sh and the AZO is running $230.00 20x24 50sh. So lets call the 20x24 AZO 100 sheets when cut down, the Azo is nearly twice as much.

    I'll just have to test angd try it myself to see if the price justifies it. Thanks for all the input everyone.
    Mike A

  3. #23

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    Now that's a deal that can't be beat. But I am inclined to think you won't sell it. There is a reason there is a cult following. Now down to the darkroom to attend the services.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by McPhotoX
    Printing on AZO WOULD be more expensive, yes...but I suggest you give it a try and see how you like it. I know its a costly thing to try, but purchase one box of 20x24, the chemicals needed to mix Amidol developer (should be in stock with Artcraft Chemicals or Photographers Formulary by the time you get around to it) and give this wonderful combonation a try.

    In fact, a good experiment would be too print the same negative on the bromide paper, then print it again on the silver chloride paper. Not only will you have less burning/dodging to do, but you will notice a HUGE gain in sharpness and detail in the AZO print. The AZO print will have a richness and depth that you cannot achive in the bromide paper.

    So, just give it a try and print a few negatives. If you do not like it...I will purchase the paper and developer from you for the price you paid, minus what you used.

    Ryan McIntosh
    Ok Ryan,

    I like your conviction to the process, I don't think there will be any need to purchase it back from me.

    I'm in on the Greg Davis Amidol order, evryone's been waiting on. In the mean time it seems most suppliers are out of Amidol.

    So as soon as I get my hands on the Amidol plus the other chemicals I'll place my order with Michael for the paper GR2 and 3.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  5. #25

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    Mike,
    What type of film/developer are you using, and how do you process your negtatives?

    I was using JandC200 w/ HC-110, and would get decent looking prints on G-3, althought they were abit flat sometimes, because the tonal scale is so long on AZO.

    I then changed my film/developer to Efke 100 using 2/2/100 Pyrocat HD in a rotating drum to get more contrast. With this process, it gives me a very dense and contrasty negative, and I am getting the perfect contrast on G-3. Sometimes I may need to bring down the contrast BARLY, so I use a waterbath developer to bring it down too a G-2 about.

    Now, I would like to hear what other AZO uses find themself using more, but I find that I ONLY use G-3, and hardly ever need less contrast. G-2 is way too soft for me and its difficult to get a good black because the tonal scale on the paper is sooooo long!

    What im trying to say is that chances are, you will use mostly the G-3 and hardly any of the NEW G-2. Since the paper is costly, you might want to just purchase the G-3, since you CAN bring the contrast down on that paper if needed. You could get a few 8x10 sheets of the new G-2 from somebody, just to try it out and see which look you like more. Maybe you are going for the soft look in your print, or maybe not!

    I think the only thing G-2 is good for, is if you shoot a VERY contrasty landscape scene in full sun and shade, and over expose and over develop it like crazy.

    Best of luck to you!

    Ryan McIntosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike A
    Ok Ryan,

    I like your conviction to the process, I don't think there will be any need to purchase it back from me.

    I'm in on the Greg Davis Amidol order, evryone's been waiting on. In the mean time it seems most suppliers are out of Amidol.

    So as soon as I get my hands on the Amidol plus the other chemicals I'll place my order with Michael for the paper GR2 and 3.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by McPhotoX
    I think the only thing G-2 is good for, is if you shoot a VERY contrasty landscape scene in full sun and shade, and over expose and over develop it like crazy.

    Best of luck to you!

    Ryan McIntosh
    Ryan,

    For what it's worth, I have worked with Azo. I have done densitometric tests of both grade two and grade three.

    Grade two Azo will require a negative that has a DR of 1.65 and the problem that prevents most photographers from experiencing the potential of the material is what you have mentioned in your post.

    When a person over exposes and over develops, you end up with a lower DR negative then if you properly exposed the film and expanded the development.

    Efke PL100 with the developer and concentration that you mention will deliver the DR that is required. I know because I have used it.

    The advantage to Grade two Azo is that it very closely matches what a pt-pd printer requires in negative characteristics.

    By the same token, Grade three Azo requires a DR of 1.35 and that is very similar to what a conventional enlarging paper requires.

    As I have said, I have used both Azo (old and new formula) and I have used Forte and Oriental papers. I can come up with a image on Seagull and Forte that please me every bit as much as an Azo print.

    I realize that everyone has their own particular tastes about things. What I am saying is that if one really understands the characteristics of their materials, then pleasing results can be obtained in a variety of ways.

    I recognize your evangelistic enthusiasm. Good luck to you.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by McPhotoX
    Mike,
    What type of film/developer are you using, and how do you process your negtatives?

    I was using JandC200 w/ HC-110, and would get decent looking prints on G-3, althought they were abit flat sometimes, because the tonal scale is so long on AZO.

    I then changed my film/developer to Efke 100 using 2/2/100 Pyrocat HD in a rotating drum to get more contrast. With this process, it gives me a very dense and contrasty negative, and I am getting the perfect contrast on G-3. Sometimes I may need to bring down the contrast BARLY, so I use a waterbath developer to bring it down too a G-2 about.

    Now, I would like to hear what other AZO uses find themself using more, but I find that I ONLY use G-3, and hardly ever need less contrast. G-2 is way too soft for me and its difficult to get a good black because the tonal scale on the paper is sooooo long!

    What im trying to say is that chances are, you will use mostly the G-3 and hardly any of the NEW G-2. Since the paper is costly, you might want to just purchase the G-3, since you CAN bring the contrast down on that paper if needed. You could get a few 8x10 sheets of the new G-2 from somebody, just to try it out and see which look you like more. Maybe you are going for the soft look in your print, or maybe not!

    I think the only thing G-2 is good for, is if you shoot a VERY contrasty landscape scene in full sun and shade, and over expose and over develop it like crazy.

    Best of luck to you!

    Ryan McIntosh
    Ryan,
    I'm using Pl100 w/Pyrocat HD 2/2/100 as well. I was using Ultrafine until they stopped selling it.
    Mike

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike A
    Ryan,
    I'm using Pl100 w/Pyrocat HD 2/2/100 as well. I was using Ultrafine until they stopped selling it.
    Mike
    Well, I would suggest starting with G-3 then. If you want less contrast...simply use a waterbath and you can take it down to a G-2 almost. If you buy G-2, their is no way of bumping up the contrast, only bringing it down (and I dont know ANYONE that has done that).

    What type of photography do you do? You don't have any images under your APUG gallery.

    Ryan McIntosh

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by McPhotoX
    Now, I would like to hear what other AZO uses find themself using more..
    Ryan,

    I use a little of the old G-2 but not much except for proofs (that is why I still have some left). My negatives seem to fit G-3 very closely. My film of choice is Tri-x in Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 for 9 minutes. Sometimes I use a water bath with Amidol and G-3 but not often. Lately though I've been developing my prints in Ansco 130 at 1:2. I 'm really beginning to like the warm tones I get with it. I'm even doing more toning with Nelson Gold Toner. It provides quite a variety of tones from a trace of purple through a warm brown to a sepia tone depending on how long the paper is left in the toner.

    Alan

  10. #30
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    I think it's always important to remember that there is no such thing as the "best" paper, developer, etc. I was having a hard time getting my Azo prints to come to life (MAS described most of my prints as being too gray) and, last night, printed some problem negs with Kentmere Bromide and Amidol and had no problem bringing them to life. Not only did the Amidol give rich, rich blacks but also allowed for a water bath to control the contrast. The prints were so easy to make that I couldn't believe it. Zone zero has never been this easy before. The Kentmere blacks remind me of the old Oriental Seagull of the early '80s.

    Does that mean that Kentmere Bromide is better than Azo? Not to me. It does mean that the Bromide/Amidol combination fits better with my vision, the way I shoot, my materials and the manner in which I develop film right now.

    So definitely try the Azo but also try the Kentmere and decide which works best for you.

    Cheers, James

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