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  1. #11

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    I think Jay has a very valid point about testing the material before investing in it. I would require test material to make the kind of investment M&P are looking for. I would never even come close to considering investing thousands in a product that I can't even see, feel or try. The facts are that some manufacturing is sloppy and how can you feel confident when you don't even know who's manufacturing the paper? EKC has some of the most stringent quality control out there. It seems to me the whole process is sketchy and questionable. They can't even afford to have a sample made and actually this first run is a sample run, according to what I have read. The product will require manipulations to make it right! You're counting on getting a perfect product on the first sample run? Michael have you put the mechanical emulsion on paper yet using the machinery that will be used in manufacture? I would think they would have looked for investors along time ago to support the production of this product. Why wait until the last minute? You must buy now or ELSE. Anyway it is great to see a new chloride paper possibly coming to market but the circumstances are a bit funky.

  2. #12

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    Jeeez, Not for nothing but it's 85 bucks for a box of paper. Nobody said you have to front thousands. Even after (if) the paper is made and is found to be suitable you still would have to pay 85 bucks for a box of paper for your own testing or use. Or do you want a package of 10? That's not happening. If you don't have the money or want some remaining #2 fine.

    Lead, follow, or get out of the way. I'm placing an order for some #3 and I don't even like the guy. Paula's a doll though.

  3. #13
    Jim Moore's Avatar
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    Are you kidding?

    :rolleyes:


    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bob
    I think Jay has a very valid point about testing the material before investing in it. I would require test material to make the kind of investment M&P are looking for. I would never even come close to considering investing thousands in a product that I can't even see, feel or try. The facts are that some manufacturing is sloppy and how can you feel confident when you don't even know who's manufacturing the paper? EKC has some of the most stringent quality control out there. It seems to me the whole process is sketchy and questionable. They can't even afford to have a sample made and actually this first run is a sample run, according to what I have read. The product will require manipulations to make it right! You're counting on getting a perfect product on the first sample run? Michael have you put the mechanical emulsion on paper yet using the machinery that will be used in manufacture? I would think they would have looked for investors along time ago to support the production of this product. Why wait until the last minute? You must buy now or ELSE. Anyway it is great to see a new chloride paper possibly coming to market but the circumstances are a bit funky.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"...Wayne Gretzky

  4. #14

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    I'n really not kidding. Most products go through any number of revisions before being produced. This emulsion has never even been put on paper before, according to what i read. Its only been hand applied, right? For that reason I would be a bit worried about product consistencty, especially on future batches. If you're desperate for chloride paper then it'll probably be fine but I hesitate to buy any product thats not been produced or actually not even made yet. According to what I've read you are paying for the first sample run of this material. The paper stock hasn't even been nailed down. They must be just putting it on whatever they have on hand at the time be it 1,2 or 3 weight. I'm sorry but that leads me to be a bit skeptical, that's all. Michael is asking artists to spend hard earned money on an untested product. Go ahead and order it if you have the money to burn. I'll certainly try it after the initial product has been released and I've read some comments. I would first like to read the Azo printers critique of the paper before buying.

  5. #15
    Jim Moore's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone is asking the average Joe Blow to put up thousands of dollars to fund this. Have you actually done any research into what is going on with this? Have you been to Michael and Paula's web site and read about it? From reading your posts I would say that you have not.

    I don't have the $$$$'s to buy huge quantities but I will be buying a few boxes to help. 11x14 and 20x24 size. If it's as good as we all hope I will stock up the freezer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bob
    I'n really not kidding. Most products go through any number of revisions before being produced. This emulsion has never even been put on paper before, according to what i read. Its only been hand applied, right? For that reason I would be a bit worried about product consistencty, especially on future batches. If you're desperate for chloride paper then it'll probably be fine but I hesitate to buy any product thats not been produced or actually not even made yet. According to what I've read you are paying for the first sample run of this material. The paper stock hasn't even been nailed down. They must be just putting it on whatever they have on hand at the time be it 1,2 or 3 weight. I'm sorry but that leads me to be a bit skeptical, that's all. Michael is asking artists to spend hard earned money on an untested product. Go ahead and order it if you have the money to burn. I'll certainly try it after the initial product has been released and I've read some comments. I would first like to read the Azo printers critique of the paper before buying.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"...Wayne Gretzky

  6. #16
    Jim Moore's Avatar
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    I think fhovie said it best in another thread.. I hope you don't mind me quoting it here.

    There are those that lament what is now gone and then there are those that take a gamble to preserve it. Then there are those that let everyone else take the gamble to preserve something great and benefit from their initiative. But shame on those that take advantage of the benefits of others who gamble and then comment on the foolishness of taking risks.
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"...Wayne Gretzky

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Moore
    I think fhovie said it best in another thread.. I hope you don't mind me quoting it here.
    And me repeating it.
    Quote Originally Posted by fhovie
    There are those that lament what is now gone and then there are those that take a gamble to preserve it. Then there are those that let everyone else take the gamble to preserve something great and benefit from their initiative. But shame on those that take advantage of the benefits of others who gamble and then comment on the foolishness of taking risks.


    What an excellent statement. Good on ya fhovie!

    *

  8. #18

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    OTOH sometimes good questions are dismissed or judged "nasty" simply because of who they come from.

    IMO Jay makes some good points, but given his history with Smith his message is being ignored.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    OTOH sometimes good questions are dismissed or judged "nasty" simply because of who they come from.

    IMO Jay makes some good points, but given his history with Smith his message is being ignored.

    It's not Jay that I have issues with.........
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"...Wayne Gretzky

  10. #20

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    Well, either Jay or Billy Bob, either way their comments seem very valid to me. As I see it Smith is asking Azo users to underwrite product development and testing without any benefits to them, saying so should not be grounds for telling off someone......

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