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  1. #21

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    I think that Jay is asking valid questions. If I were going to invest in this venture then I would think that it is reasonable to ask those questions.

    Hand coating a paper and arriving at a result is a different matter then machine coating the paper and having it be the same.

    I am not judging Michael's and Paula's ability to judge. I am saying that this whole matter seems to be very much "in process" at the present time.

  2. #22
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    As I see it Smith is asking Azo users to underwrite product development and testing without any benefits to them
    In a sense, he is asking users to underwrite product development, but if the manufacturer can't produce a quality product, I think Michael is trustworthy enough and has enough of a reputation at stake to return the money, and if the manufacturer comes through, then the benefit to the user/investors is the paper they've paid for.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
    then the benefit to the user/investors is the paper they've paid for.
    This must be the Microsoft way of thinking then....I should be grateful to be able to have the stuff and pay them on top of it.

  4. #24
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge
    This must be the Microsoft way of thinking then....I should be grateful to be able to have the stuff and pay them on top of it.
    I don't see why. The price of the paper is not exorbitant compared to other premium papers or the product it replaces. Just as with a pre-order for a known product, I'm paying for the amount I'm purchasing, and if the product is produced, I'll get what was advertised, and if the product is not produced, I'll get a refund.

    I'll buy a few boxes, and if it's good, I'll buy more, and if not, then I won't.
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  5. #25

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    Michael represented the uncertainty of what is going on fairly well. It is being made by an established manufacturer who knows very well how the hand-coated papers scale up to production. I doubt very much the paper could be a complete dud, and if you don't like how it prints dump it on ebay.
    art is about managing compromise

  6. #26
    jd callow's Avatar
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    The choice appears to be: Chase the remaining boxes of AZO or help fund the production of a replacement paper.

    If I'm 'investing' 100.00 I would have to trust M & P. If I'm 'investing' 10,000 or 100,000 I might want a seat at the table. Except it realy is not an investment you are buying a product and helping ensure the continuation of a paper.



    If AZO were a material I used it would be a no brainer.

    *

  7. #27

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    Just as with a pre-order for a known product
    Not really, The Kodak and Ilford pre orders for ULF film are for a tried and tested product. In this case, you are not only taking the word of someone but you are gambling the product might be ok. If this is your idea of "benefit" to you, by all means buy all you want. Me, I would wait until all the kinks are worked out. Which I beleive is all Jay and Bob are saying....the gall of these guys!

  8. #28
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    This is true, but personality issues aside, I think Michael is a pretty good judge of what a decent paper is, and that he has enough to lose by putting his name behind a bad product not to release it unless it's good. I might lose the cost of a couple of boxes of paper if Michael turns out to be unreliable, but he will lose much more, and there are many worse things to risk a few hundred dollars over.
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
    This is true, but personality issues aside, I think Michael is a pretty good judge of what a decent paper is, and that he has enough to lose by putting his name behind a bad product not to release it unless it's good. I might lose the cost of a couple of boxes of paper if Michael turns out to be unreliable, but he will lose much more, and there are many worse things to risk a few hundred dollars over.
    Like I said, you want to underwrite Smith's product testing and development, far be it for me to tell you otherwise. This is the bottom line. The rest are just your guesses and evaluations.

  10. #30

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    Unfortunatly I see a lot more of these type of deals for photographic material in the future.
    art is about managing compromise

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