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  1. #21
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Aggie, thanks, I agree.

    Jim, yes I agree as well. I also feel that there would have to be several trial runs to establish the suitability of the product for the open market. This would increase the initial investment and decrease the ROI until a suitable product hits the market. The lag time and the number of trial runs will be the determining factor in success or failure.

    PE

  2. #22
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    I have no problem at all with people discussing azo here. Ryan had deleted his own post content then asked if I could remove it. Since he already deleted the post content (people have a set time they can edit a post) I figured no point having a thread with no topic. People are free to discuss azo here till the cows come home, Ryans thread was just a judgement call based on him removing the content on his original post and asking if I could remove the rest. If he wants I can re-add it but looks like the discussion has picked up here again..

  3. #23

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    I found a pretty interesting thread from James Browning. I sent him a email and asked him if he still has his connection for the baryta paper. You will need to scroll to the bottom.

    http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-.../msg00492.html

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by avandesande
    I found a pretty interesting thread from James Browning. I sent him a email and asked him if he still has his connection for the baryta paper. You will need to scroll to the bottom.

    http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-.../msg00492.html
    Jim is still making dye transfers with his Matrix Film work alike and they are quite beautiful. Jim has also posted his emulsion formula for Matrix Film.

    The bottom line is that a work-alike can do the job!

    His work is outstanding.

    I have a source now for Baryta FB DW paper in 3 surfaces. It may become generally available in the near future.

    PE

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean
    I have no problem at all with people discussing azo here. Ryan had deleted his own post content then asked if I could remove it. Since he already deleted the post content (people have a set time they can edit a post) I figured no point having a thread with no topic. People are free to discuss azo here till the cows come home, Ryans thread was just a judgement call based on him removing the content on his original post and asking if I could remove the rest. If he wants I can re-add it but looks like the discussion has picked up here again..

    Sean, this entire thread is in answer to your question.

    PE

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
    Sean, this entire thread is in answer to your question.

    PE
    I forgot I even posted it, was back in 2002

  7. #27

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    Sourcing a paper base sounds like the most likely obstacle. When you find a suitable paper to match to the emulsion(s), it will be much easier for someone or a group to step forward to make a minimum purchase of a known quantity with $10,000 as the target number as opposed to over $100,000.


    I have pointed out before in such threads that one needs to think in a different paradigm with regards to analog products today. One needs a 500 million dollar factory to produce for millions of customers. Production methods can be designed and are probably currently available for very small quantities. This is what PE is persuing I believe. While he is not intersted in mass producing the paper, the knowledge he is gathering can be used either on an individual basis or by some ingenius person who can make paper runs in the hundreds.

    Also, one needs to consider that formulas from someone like kodak are made with all the parameters of mass production, packaging, shelf life in mind. The boutique paper coater does not need to worry about such details.

    I don't think one can ever match AZO exactly because one is not privy to the exact formula(s) and does not have the specific coating machine. But I am sure one can come up with something very similar and possibly even better in some peoples eyes.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  8. #28
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    I suspect the manufacturing model would be something like that of Centennial POP or the old Palladio platinum paper. Kentmere papers seem to be short run affairs. It seems like the kind of product they could support.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
    I suspect the manufacturing model would be something like that of Centennial POP or the old Palladio platinum paper. Kentmere papers seem to be short run affairs. It seems like the kind of product they could support.

    David, I would guess that the original quote from Michael and Paula for 'duplicating' a run of Azo outside of EK is probably reasonable. In fact, due to the initial losses at startup, the estimate may be quite low.

    So, for a run costing $100,000 (I don't have that post here so I'm putting up a rough center point of what I think they quoted) they get a run of Azo which may or may not be right the first time and they keep doing it until it works. At least that is the way I read it.

    Even a short run is close to 1 master roll. After all, you have to thread the machine and it is huge. Then you get it up to speed, then you coat. If the paper tears, you are SOL and with SW FB that is not unlikely unless you do a lot of work with SW FB and know how to tension the machine. Does Kentmere, for example, do a lot of SW? IDK, but I believe that their products are mostly DW FB or HW FB which are more durable when being coated. If SW FB is a one-off experiment for them, it might be difficult. IDK. This is a very complex issue.

    RC is a lot harder to tear than FB during coating.

    PE

  10. #30
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    Explain to me why it has to be single weight? Single weight to me is a PIA to work with since you have to treat it with kid gloves. I much prefer double weight or even a heavier stock. Is there something mystical about single weight?
    Non Digital Diva

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