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  1. #121

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    To my knowledge, no one but Salto does, or can do, what they do. They do not use digital negatives. They use film, real film. Our negatives are scanned, then enlarged digitally, but then five separations are printed on an image setter on real film in 600-line screen. These five separations are then exposed in register onto the paper. I was told that the DMax reaches 2.10. I have been told that is high.

    A printer in the USA once told me that "no image setter can set 600-line screen." But he was obviously wrong. The folks at Salto really are amazing. What the owner says is that he is always trying to expand the boundaries of physics. Right now, among other things he is doing, he, along with mathematicians, engineers, and physicists, is working on a new way to reproduce color, one that will always reproduce it as it is. He believes this will make CMYK and RGB obsolete. The folks at Salto are way over the top. Makes me with our silver chloride paper appear to be a total non-achiever.

    Michael A. Smith

  2. #122
    billschwab's Avatar
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    Yes, Mr. Smith (sorry about the name mix-up.) I have seen your work. Photo LA and AIPAD, where my work was also being represented. Believe me when I say that in my opinion the internet suits your prints fine. Again in my opinion, even the best paper in the world isn't going to make them any better.

    As for not caring for my work, I feel much the way you might about my feelings on yours. I'm not sure I've been paid a bigger compliment.

    William G. Schwab

  3. #123
    Kerik's Avatar
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    So Salto needs five negatives to make a decent platinum print from your images? Hmmm... I don't think Laura Gilpen did. Or Frederick Evans. Or William Willis. Or Coburn. Or Dick Arentz. Or Sal Lopes, Stan Klimek, Clay Harmon, myself and many other talented folks who use pt/pd as their medium of choice. And I've held original prints from each of these photographers in my hands (except for Sal). I've seen the Salto prints in person (not the Smith/Chamlees) and they are OK for what they are. They don't have the same quiet, gentle qualities of the prints of the others I mentioned. They are different - I'm not saying good or bad, just different. And I've got no problem with that. To each his or her own. I will admit I've seen plenty of pt/pd prints that are not up to par. But I've seen far more bad silver prints simply because there are so many more of them out there. Using a given medium does not grant one the skill to use it well.

    While I now devote my work to platinum/gum and wet plate collodion, I've made many hundreds of (real) Azo prints in the past. In fact, I still have a few boxes of 14x17 grade 2 left, in case the mood strikes me again. It is a beautiful medium, and although I've not seen Lodima in person, I will take the word of the people here that use it that it, too is a very nice paper to print on. So was Centennial POP and I still lament its passing. Kudos to Lodima for keeping a fine medium available for those who choose to use it.

    BTW, I did have the opportunity to look through a large number of Mr Smith's Azo prints at Photo San Francisco several years ago. I'll just say it didn't take very long.

    Salesmanship aside, there is no holy grail in photography or art and I give thanks for that. Anyone who proclaims a holy grail exists is just another butt-naked emporer. Usually in their own mind.
    Kerik Kouklis
    Platinum/Gum/Collodion
    www.kerik.com
    2014 Workshop Schedule Online

  4. #124
    Kerik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    They do not use digital negatives. They use film, real film. Our negatives are scanned, then enlarged digitally, but then five separations are printed on an image setter on real film in 600-line screen.
    Apparently you don't even understand the term digital negative.
    Kerik Kouklis
    Platinum/Gum/Collodion
    www.kerik.com
    2014 Workshop Schedule Online

  5. #125
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    To my knowledge, no one but Salto does, or can do, what they do. They do not use digital negatives. They use film, real film. Our negatives are scanned, then enlarged digitally, but then five separations are printed on an image setter on real film in 600-line screen. These five separations are then exposed in register onto the paper. I was told that the DMax reaches 2.10. I have been told that is high.
    Since we are already way off topic, why not go farther off. Can you briefly explain why 5 separations are needed? I am not understanding this process. Is each one is for a separate color (which I doubt for platinum)? Or maybe it's to hide dots from the image setter? It sounds intriguing and I would love to see the results.

  6. #126
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    Larry, It is best saved for Hybrid or a mystic arts forum -- as I suspect mere mortals wouldn't understand anyway.

    *

  7. #127

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    What does one have to do and put up with to bring a new product to the market?

    Every word you put forth says more about who says it then who it's addressed to .

    Dignity !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All of this have one thing in common - PHOTOGRAPHY and it's bigger then all of this

    Time , Time , Time

    We don't have a lot of it , let's get this product out and use it , we all may be dead tomorrow

    As a child doing photography , I felt that people were intentionally degrading me and my photography to put themselves on a pedestal , that was when I was kid ...Grow up

    Your photography , his photography , mine, hers....................... what a hell ?!

    It's first rate product , I have gone thru 4 boxes , I bought them from people who have no time to print now, I will buy every box you want to sell...

    One thing that you have not said anything about ....darkroom flow ... there is no material or method on the market today(other then a computer) that will allow you to print in such a vigorous flow like contact printing , I have printed over 10000 negatives in the last 5 years and if I was working with something like lith which takes , someone said, 20 minutes in the soup and you can only get 3 or so sheets of paper thru it before developer exhaust itself I would be dead waiting for it ...

    Platinum, Collodian ...Great stuff

    As far as Seeing!!!!!!!!!!! you don't learn it from a master printer , it's a personal thing.

  8. #128

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    Why Salto uses 5 negatives? That's what they do. They feel the prints are richer when they make them that way. I believe each one is from a different part of the curve, but there probably is some overlap, and a skeleton black, which is why the black tones are so deep. But I am the wrong person to answer this. My technical knowledge about these things is supremely limited. I only know what I see. And the platinum prints Salto makes, curators and collectors have told us, are the richest they have ever seen, with the possible exception of some of Irving Penn's platinum prints.

    No, the platinum prints that Salto makes do not have the same "quiet, gentle" quality of other's platinum prints. They don't care for "quiet, gentle" in prints they make. They feel, as I do, that "quiet, gentle" is often (note please I did not say, nor imply, "always") a justification for not being able to make rich prints with deep black tones.

    Yes, they are digital negatives, but they are output to film; the negatives are not printed on an ink-jet printer. That is what I meant to say. Sorry not to be precise. The digital world escapes me. I know next to nothing about it. Fortunately our wonderful assistant, Richard Boutwell, who is a lot younger than we are, knows how to make scans and use PhotoShop, otherwise we would not even be able to get anything up on the Internet.

    I gather that some think that I am proclaiming silver chloride paper as the holy grail. I am not. Vision, Seeing, ALWAYS comes first. ALWAYS. But then there is print quality. In my experience, looking at thousands of original prints from the masters of photography, the Westons, Edward and Brett, Adams, Evans, and many others, the silver chloride prints are the most beautiful. To me. If others prefer the prints made on enlarging paper, good for them. But I do wonder why, in a thread about our being ready to take orders for Lodima paper, those not interested in using the paper even bother to read it, let alone respond. Do you do it just to be negative?

    Michael A. Smith

  9. #129
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I guess I will jump on this one.

    I assume Salto is doing multiple registration work from digital files.
    I would imagine the paper is on aluminum to allow multiple hits , to build up density contrast or even build character in the print.
    This is not unique to one printer in the world and has been very common.
    We at elevator are now exposing digital files onto continuous tone film and processing with black and white chemicals.
    We are using a high resolution laser printer ( not to be confused with a 600 line screen process)
    We just purchased 200 ft of 20 inch con tone film from Europe to Beta test this and hopefully I will have the results for Photostock 2009 of prints done by a few printers I trust on different medias.

    The end result will be for multiple film hits onto paper using any and all alternative processes... I do not think this is so unique, as Chicago Albumen Works have been making LVT negs from digital files for years and I believe Larry G here on APUG has been doing this for quite awhile.
    What I think is unique is the layering of hits that build up an artists pallette that one single pass may not be able to do.
    We have been making multiple passes on inkjet for years to achieve an improved print , so I believe this Salto is onto a good thing, but certainly not the only one in the world doing such crazy things.

    CMYK and RGB being obsolete is curious as they are colour spaces for one to work in much like LAB. I would be interested to see their new spaces for working in.
    I would like to see the new Salto profile .

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    To my knowledge, no one but Salto does, or can do, what they do. They do not use digital negatives. They use film, real film. Our negatives are scanned, then enlarged digitally, but then five separations are printed on an image setter on real film in 600-line screen. These five separations are then exposed in register onto the paper. I was told that the DMax reaches 2.10. I have been told that is high.

    A printer in the USA once told me that "no image setter can set 600-line screen." But he was obviously wrong. The folks at Salto really are amazing. What the owner says is that he is always trying to expand the boundaries of physics. Right now, among other things he is doing, he, along with mathematicians, engineers, and physicists, is working on a new way to reproduce color, one that will always reproduce it as it is. He believes this will make CMYK and RGB obsolete. The folks at Salto are way over the top. Makes me with our silver chloride paper appear to be a total non-achiever.

    Michael A. Smith

  10. #130

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    Salto: the paper is not on aluminum.

    Yes, multiple registration from digital files. Then multiple exposures.

    They use Kodak film.

    What is LVT? What is LAB?

    Salto's color stuff is, I believe several years away. They know what goal they want; getting there is not easy.

    Michael A. Smith



 

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