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  1. #71

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    With Amidol developer, you do not need to go back and forth from the water bath to the developer. With silver chloride paper, one minute total in solution is optimum.

    With other developers, you do need to go back and forth. I have done it up to 11 minutes total, but not with silver chloride paper.

    It would be decent of Bill Schwab to confront me directly with his statement of how I "have treated some folks." I find his innuendo offensive. When attacked, I respond. I have never instigated an attack.

    Curiously, on the Azo Forum there has never been any attack on anyone by anyone. Never. The discussions are always just about the work, as they should be. And as they should be here as well. But some folks cannot seem to contain themselves.

    Earlier in this thread, Cardwell's referring to everything surrounding silver chloride paper as a "cult" is an attack, a subtle attack to be sure, but an attack nonetheless, whether some of you see it that way or not.

    Michael A. Smith

  2. #72
    Dinesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post

    It would be decent of Bill Schwab to confront me directly with his statement of how I "have treated some folks." I find his innuendo offensive. When attacked, I respond. I have never instigated an attack.


    Michael A. Smith
    7/11/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    ....This fellow, Heath, whoever he is, (ah, I looked him up, he is a photographer, although I can understand by looking at his photographs why he is so negative and bitter), ...Michael A. Smith
    4/19/09

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    From Andrew Moxom: "While I normally stay out of such things on a public forum, something does not smell right here. So all enlarging papers are now considered dinosaurs and of inferior quality. .......I would gladly try this paper, but is there really enough proof to say that it's superior to anything else out there, and why the hype?? I sense an attitude of if you don't contact print on this, you aren't a real photographer.... my .02"

    Have you ever tried, Andrew, making contact prints on silver chloride paper? If you have not, then your comments are totally worthless.... Michael A. Smith
    Kick his ass, Sea Bass!

  3. #73
    Lee L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell View Post
    Some may find the Michael&Paula thing a bit more of a cult than straightforward picture making.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    Earlier in this thread, Cardwell's referring to everything surrounding silver chloride paper as a "cult" is an attack, ...
    I read the cardwell quote as being somewhat more specific than MAS implies.

    Lee

  4. #74
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Hm... had to do a quick check of the banner. For a second there I thought I was on the LF boards.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  5. #75

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    Yeah this is getting petty. Normally a Thread like this would have either been locked or tossed to the soap box.
    Technological society has succeeded in multiplying the opportunities for pleasure, but it has great difficulty in generating joy. Pope Paul VI

    So, I think the "greats" were true to their visions, once their visions no longer sucked. Ralph Barker 12/2004

  6. #76
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    The picture is about the picture, not the paper it was printed on. All else is personal preference and we will never all agree. Period.

    If someone believes that their process is the cat's meow to making the best prints they can make, then why stop them from thinking so? Because it probably is true!
    But that doesn't discount all other methods out there. I have seen many photographs in my day, and I never even reflect upon what kind of paper was used, or what chemistry. I have seen many photography shows where digital prints far surpassed analog prints, simply because they were better pictures, better thought out, better composed, had more emotional impact, etc.

    Any aspiring photographer should know that consistency in using your materials, and learning HOW to use them in order to yield prints that are satisfying, is the way to work. Stop chasing silver bullets. Chase subject matter. Chase light. Chase expression. Chase your soul. But do NOT chase silver bullets.
    I have no problem admitting that Michael Smith's prints are excellent, (although I prefer Paula Chamlee's pictures). But so are Bill Schwab's. One set are made with Azo/Lodima in Amidol and ULF negs. The other set is made from a Hasselblad with off the shelf materials (literally materials I can buy around the corner in Minneapolis). What gives? It's NOT about the stupid materials! It's about HOW you use them and what you do with them. df cardwells photographs are fantastic works of art too, he's a master portraitist.

    What these three photographers and artists have in common is that they know their materials inside and out; they know exactly what they are capable of, and are able to extract the most of them. THAT is the common denominator.

    Just get over it and get back to what really matters. CONTENT. And let's help the original poster with his quest to get his printing on a roll.
    Last edited by Thomas Bertilsson; 12-11-2009 at 11:34 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #77

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    Ah, my comment to Heath. I do remember that one. Had you bothered to read all of Heath's previous comments you might have understood mine. I received a number of private emails after that telling me they were pleased with my comment as Heath had been a problem for many. I did not know that, never having read any of his postings on any other thread

    And my comment to Andrew Moxon was a comment to him and by extension to others as well. It is amazing to me that folks call something "hype" before they try it. If, after they try something, and assuming they know how to use the material (a big assumption as many think they really know how to handle certain materials, but in reality do not), they find it lacking, then, yes, if they want to call claims for the paper "hype" they could certainly do so. But comments like that are routinely made by folks who have not tried the product. As such, those comments are indeed worthless.

    In other fields, folks look to those who have experience before they trust their recommendations and their comments. In photography forums, and I suspect in others as well, although I do not participate in other forums, all comments are often treated equally, regardless of the experience of those making them.

    There are a many things about photography that I do not know, but there are some things I know very deeply. Those are what I confine my comments to. It continues to amaze me that people who have never made a contact print on silver chloride paper even bother to read the threads about it (since it appears they have no interest in ever using that type of paper), let alone comment on it. Why do they bother?

    Michael A. Smith

  8. #78

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    Working in a well-lit darkroom is one of the pleasures of using Lodima. With a water bath, I can squeegee the print once removed from water bath; and apply developer locally using a cotton swab to areas that still need further development. This would be nearly impossible with regular enlarging paper.

    Lodima also responds well to pre-flashing whether to a particular area or overall. I use a Besseler audible timer for flashing since it enables 1/10's of a second control.

    Lodima can produce excellent results with developers other than Amidol. I especially prefer the ease of use of Ansco PF 130.

    Without M&P's willingness to expend time, money and effort into bringing Lodima to fruition, discussions on Weston's techniques would be only of historical interest. If this expression of appreciation makes me a cult member, I plead guilty.
    van Huyck Photo
    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"

  9. #79

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    I do have to add that its curious how a discussion of printing Weston-style attracts posters who clearly have no interest in the subject. If I see a discussion on how to do wet-plate collodian, for example, I would not bother reading it. Not because I disrespect the posters who are concerned with collodian; but rather I have no intent of trying that method. I guess this is one of the downsides of having an all-encompassing forum such as APUG. A forum dedicated to a specific method doesn't normally attract spurious postings.
    van Huyck Photo
    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"

  10. #80

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    And while I'm ranting, I do have to say that accusations of cultism are insulting. This whole site is built on a cult following - that analog photography methods/equipment are superior or at least preferred. And there are a number of sub-cults here, eg the Leica cult/sub-forum. Maybe we should only have membership in sub-forums and only those true believers can enter. Others can throw rocks/insults from the Lounge. It would certainly be preferred to intellectually dishonest disparagements of those who prefer lodima/amidol/pyro.
    van Huyck Photo
    "Progress is only a direction, and it's often the wrong direction"

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