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  1. #111
    Dinesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dougherty View Post
    The only other explanation of course is Stone's self proclaimed genius.
    If this is the zenith, what do you suppose the rest of the class was like?
    Kick his ass, Sea Bass!

  2. #112
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    I think questioning Stone's intelligence is crossing a line.

    Stone- I'd like to think the advice you get here is a sincere attempt, on the part of the posters, to help you become a better photographer. You've only been doing this for a few years, and still have a long way to go. Still, it seems every time those with more experience point out where you're wrong, you reject it. It would be in your best interest to start paying attention, especially when it comes to the specific characteristics you attribute to different films. I know I've been doing this for over 40 years. I think John has been doing it about the same. Chris could probably identify the smell of stopbath before he learned to read. Shawn and Thomas, while younger, busted their asses learning to control their materials (and have the images to show for it). I know that, "he wrote the book" is usually an exaggeration, but Ralph really did write the friggin' book! If you really want to be a photographer, you should listen to these people. Step back... simplify your materials... print, print, print.

  3. #113
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Why don't photographers include photo details in books?

    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    I think questioning Stone's intelligence is crossing a line.

    Stone- I'd like to think the advice you get here is a sincere attempt, on the part of the posters, to help you become a better photographer.
    I agree, Eddie. This is no place for insults.

    We are trying to help, but at the same time it's like talking to a brick wall trying to actually get a point across.
    Stone, if you really want our advice, you should open your mind to embracing the responses you receive, from people who generously donate their time and share their (many times) life long experience, in efforts to help you.
    If and when you ask the rest of us a favor to try to help you, it would help if you at least try to fully comprehend what we are replying.

    If you want to play with film and that's fun to you, then please separate those efforts from efforts in trying to understand what is actually going on. The two don't mix well.
    I can tell you that my first thousand rolls of film were my worst ones in terms of actually understanding what the hell I was doing. It takes a long time to learn instinctively how our materials work, and expect to be at it with some discipline for a long time before the epiphanies start to happen.

    My mentor told me once that if you really want to learn film, then buy long bulk rolls of Tri-X and lots of D76, lock yourself in a darkroom and print print print. Only come out to expose more film, and do over again and again, until you have pictures you like.
    No free rides, all hard work. And don't make things complicated by believing another film is somehow going to make things better.

    That's paraphrased advice I received from a person who studied with the masters, relaying hundreds of years of combined knowledge down to that piece of advice. Time of receiving advice? Right in the midst of making a total mess of mixing films and developers, while wondering what was going wrong. Sound familiar?

    I am a student, learning something new every time I go in the darkroom. The most important lesson I've learned to date is that it sucks donkey balls to print inconsistent negs.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #114
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    I think questioning Stone's intelligence is crossing a line.

    Stone- I'd like to think the advice you get here is a sincere attempt, on the part of the posters, to help you become a better photographer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I agree, Eddie. This is no place for insults.

    We are trying to help, but at the same time it's like talking to a brick wall trying to actually get a point across.
    Stone, if you really want our advice, you should open your mind to embracing the responses you receive, from people who generously donate their time and share their (many times) life long experience, in efforts to help you.
    If and when you ask the rest of us a favor to try to help you, it would help if you at least try to fully comprehend what we are replying.
    What I said was tongue in cheek and given the consistent nature of Stone's posts along with the playful nature of many of them I don't believe any sort of line was crossed. (He has, in point of fact, mentioned his genius several times lately...)

    Other than that I agree completely with both Eddie and Thomas, as usual.

  5. #115
    Shawn Dougherty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I am a student, learning something new every time I go in the darkroom. The most important lesson I've learned to date is that it sucks donkey balls to print inconsistent negs.
    Now THAT is genius.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    The most important lesson I've learned to date is that it sucks donkey balls to print inconsistent negs.
    You should add that to your sig line.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  7. #117
    eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dougherty View Post
    What I said was tongue in cheek...
    I know. My comment wasn't aimed at you. Just trying to keep the thread from devolving into personal attacks.
    That being said, I'd be happy to participate in an intervention, where we all lock Stone in a basement with one film and one developer, and make him write, "THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET" one thousand times.

  8. #118
    Dinesh's Avatar
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    You don't get to continually post that you are a genius and expect to come out unscathed.

    The OP continually asks for advice and then refuses to accept that there may be validity in any or all of the answers that he receives. In a perfect world, I would ignore these threads and move on, but there is too much valuable information in the replies.

    I am more likely closer to imbecile than genius, but even I know that I don't know much.
    Kick his ass, Sea Bass!

  9. #119
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    If you are honestly serious that you can't tell the difference between Neopan 400 vs Tri-X or Neopan400 vs HP5+... Then I feel sorry for you, because I sure can... VERY different looks.

    It would be fun to see how many regular posters here could fairly effortlessly screw up Stone by adjusting their procedures with Neopan 400, Tri-X and HP5+ to make it impossible to tell which is which.

    I bet a there wold be a lot who could.

    Other than spectral response, within films of similar speed and construction (traditional vs. T-Max type) there really isn't anything that differentiates most films in a way that prevents a user from making one appear like another.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lange View Post
    Alright, here are 4 different 400 speed films: Kentmere 400, HP5+, Tri-X, and Neopan, which is which? I look at these photographs I cannot honestly say that any of them contains a look specific to the emulsion they were shot on. Also, as someone who has admitted to never printing a single frame in their life, I don't think you are qualified to make that judgment. Listen to the way people describe their favorite films, "alabaster highlights, charcoal black shadows, sandpapery grain, etc..." it's all fucking bullshit. If you can see the difference between films of the same speed and grain type, then one negative was not printed or processed as well as the other. It's easy to convince yourself that you are seeing the so-called "special" aspects of a film when in reality you're just patting yourself on the back...

    oh, three of these are with an M2/ 50 summicron combo, and one is with a Nikon F3/T and a 35/1.4...




    One of the 4 isn't loading on my phone... I'll look on the computer when I get home but the second one (stairwell) looks like HP5+ at first glance.

    I'll give my official answer when I can get a better look.



 

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