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  1. #71
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Why don't photographers include photo details in books?

    Quote Originally Posted by erikg View Post
    Ha! Can't help you there, but aren't you learning the way up a different industry?
    I don't really have a certain industry that I'm going for, there are a few different types of photography that I enjoy doing, I really love landscapes, and I also shoot a lot of model photography, but I would love to also do fashion photography as well which is different in a lot of ways, I live in Connecticut but I used NYC, because I wanted to manifest destiny Innoway and be a fashion photographer in New York.

    I also wouldn't mind doing more famous portrait style stuff like Annie does, I know a lot of stars in the industry, but knowing them is different than actually being friends with them, and so unfortunately I don't have the connections to be able to comfortably approach people about doing us kinds of things and no one knows me so I'm not going to be hired specifically for those jobs and I don't really know how to Break down those doors.
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  2. #72
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Some photographers do include information on their equipment and/or materials in their books, sometimes in their introduction or as an afterword.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  3. #73
    Maris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    Does it matter? Can't you judge the image as it is without internal thoughts about how it was made. It exists before you, right here right now. Appreciate what you see without internal judgement about production.
    There is no more simple-minded, naive, incurious, and gullible way of looking at an image than by taking it as fully revealed at first glance. Everyone has their price, even me, but I won't sell my committment to look, wonder, and marvel at so cheap a price.

    If the medium and means of production of an image are discounted all the affirmations that the medium carries about its relationship to subject matter are cancelled too. And all the connections to the physical art process and the real-life creative journey of the picture-maker disappear as well.

    These connotations and connections are readable by people who look beyond the surface of a picture in order to profoundly enrich the viewing experience. Without this inquiring search a picture is just a picture is just a picture. And it does not matter how it got that way.

    A world where "it's all jest pitchers, innit?" muddles surface and substance. It's a shallow and naive world where "looks like" means "same as". I won't to surrender to such superficiality while I can still generate internal thoughts to look deeper.
    Photography, the word itself, invented and defined by its author Sir John.F.W.Herschel, 14 March 1839 at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London. Quote "...Photography or the application of the Chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation,..". unquote.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lange View Post
    ...in addition to it being mostly pointless, and highly subjective (ie. Tri-X and D76 can be very smooth, or very, very grainy when treated differently)...

    I would hazard that most photographers don't remember or care.

    I don't record what developer I use, and the film choice is generally unrelated to the overall look of the print...I have prints from FP4+ that make Delta 3200 look like TMax 100, and I have prints from Tri-X that have no right to print at 16x20" as smoothly as they do, but yet there they are...
    Totally agree Chris.

    Stone even if you were using an enlarger and the same film and camera as me; your results would be different than mine for any given scene. That's a good thing, variety is the spice of life.

    Maybe you need to ask the question from a different perspective like; "how can I create this effect?" rather than "how did they?"

    Pick the characteristics that strike your fancy, that you want in your work then do some experiments and figure out how to get there.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  5. #75
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    There is no more simple-minded, naive, incurious, and gullible way of looking at an image than by taking it as fully revealed at first glance. Everyone has their price, even me, but I won't sell my committment to look, wonder, and marvel at so cheap a price.

    If the medium and means of production of an image are discounted all the affirmations that the medium carries about its relationship to subject matter are cancelled too. And all the connections to the physical art process and the real-life creative journey of the picture-maker disappear as well.

    These connotations and connections are readable by people who look beyond the surface of a picture in order to profoundly enrich the viewing experience. Without this inquiring search a picture is just a picture is just a picture. And it does not matter how it got that way.

    A world where "it's all jest pitchers, innit?" muddles surface and substance. It's a shallow and naive world where "looks like" means "same as". I won't to surrender to such superficiality while I can still generate internal thoughts to look deeper.
    Are you saying you can always tell the difference between a darkroom print to one made by any other means? Because I can't and I know a lot of other people who can't.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maris View Post
    There is no more simple-minded, naive, incurious, and gullible way of looking at an image than by taking it as fully revealed at first glance. Everyone has their price, even me, but I won't sell my committment to look, wonder, and marvel at so cheap a price.

    If the medium and means of production of an image are discounted all the affirmations that the medium carries about its relationship to subject matter are cancelled too. And all the connections to the physical art process and the real-life creative journey of the picture-maker disappear as well.

    These connotations and connections are readable by people who look beyond the surface of a picture in order to profoundly enrich the viewing experience. Without this inquiring search a picture is just a picture is just a picture. And it does not matter how it got that way.

    A world where "it's all jest pitchers, innit?" muddles surface and substance. It's a shallow and naive world where "looks like" means "same as". I won't to surrender to such superficiality while I can still generate internal thoughts to look deeper.
    yaa, i mean, i gedit, but... it's all jest pitchers, innit?

  7. #77
    erikg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    I don't really have a certain industry that I'm going for, there are a few different types of photography that I enjoy doing, I really love landscapes, and I also shoot a lot of model photography, but I would love to also do fashion photography as well which is different in a lot of ways, I live in Connecticut but I used NYC, because I wanted to manifest destiny Innoway and be a fashion photographer in New York.

    I also wouldn't mind doing more famous portrait style stuff like Annie does, I know a lot of stars in the industry, but knowing them is different than actually being friends with them, and so unfortunately I don't have the connections to be able to comfortably approach people about doing us kinds of things and no one knows me so I'm not going to be hired specifically for those jobs and I don't really know how to Break down those doors.
    Oh I see. I thought you were learning the ropes in the film industry. As for shooting fashion assisting is a great way to learn the business, PDN just had a piece on that. Knowing celebs is great but the people you will want to connect with are the art directors who hire for those shoots.

  8. #78

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    The bottom line is that what film, developer, and even camera was used to make such and such amazing image done by whomever is meaningless.
    There are amazing images made with pretty much every film and developer combination ever devised. But, there are many, many more bad images made on those very same materials.

    The real trick is to pick some (IMHO it does not have to be just one) that translate what you want to say, and make images.

    I think the frustration in this comes from the fact that there are so many possibilities, all 66,671 members here have felt it.
    Following some cookbook you can take film A and with developer B make images with flowing smooth tones that go on forever. But take that same film, handle it differently, process in developer C and you get grain that looks like the emusion was coated on sand. But if you look long enough, you'll find someone who has used Film A and developer C and produced a grainless smooth detailed image that would be impossible for anyone else. When that happens, just say "WTF" and grab a roll of your fave go make pictures and process it in what works for you.

  9. #79
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Totally agree Chris.

    Stone even if you were using an enlarger and the same film and camera as me; your results would be different than mine for any given scene. That's a good thing, variety is the spice of life.

    Maybe you need to ask the question from a different perspective like; "how can I create this effect?" rather than "how did they?"

    Pick the characteristics that strike your fancy, that you want in your work then do some experiments and figure out how to get there.
    I think the idea is, The photographer uses certain combo that I wouldn't have even tried, because I wouldn't expected to have a certain look or result, but see in a book and say oh this a talk up for has used X film with Y developer and they got this result that I didn't think they could get, maybe it is possible to use that film or that developer and have good results.

    That's not the only reason that I want to know info about the photo, but it certainly is something to think about and can be valuable, that's my point.

    It also beckons the question about time frames, in the past they were films that I don't even know existed, and sometimes I look at the photo and say wow that's a great look I wonder what film that was on, and it happens to be on something that I've never even heard of like Royal X Pan, which I've only heard of recently because it was probably discontinued before I was born...

    Now does it make sense?

    It's like someone who is some kind of metal worker, looking at the Liberty Bell and saying I wonder what percentage of brass or whatever it's made of is in this Liberty Bell, it's important to some people because they're just curious it's part of history, and if that information isn't documented it's lost forever.
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by erikg View Post
    For many photographers, especially for those who consider what they do art, there is already this feeling that they need to work against the idea that photography is just a technical exercise. It's a bias or perceived bias that has lessened over the years but hasn't completely gone away. Artists in other media get this too and you won't find too many books put out by painters who go into much detail about process. Unfairly or not in the art world it seems amateurish. Ever go to a lecture by an established fine art photographer? There always seems to be one person in the audience who asks about cameras or film or something and you'll hear a collective grown go through the audience. There are just bigger questions to ask and to think about. The stakes should be higher. Sunday painters talk about brushes. Serious artists keep that talk amongst peers.
    My perspective exactly. StoneNYC is looking at art books and searching for logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    It's like someone who is some kind of metal worker, looking at the Liberty Bell and saying I wonder what percentage of brass or whatever it's made of is in this Liberty Bell, it's important to some people because they're just curious it's part of history, and if that information isn't documented it's lost forever.
    A better comparison with a creative photographer would be a sculptor, who would probably look at the bell (if at all) in consideration of form. The 'metal worker' you describe here sounds like an engineer. There are no formulas, Stone.

    I remember Kurt Cobain saying that when he was a kid he had a Sex Pistols poster on his wall - even though he had never heard them. Playing guitar on his bed, he tried to recreate what he thought they would sound like. This is in essence the mind of the artist.
    'Cows are very fond of being photographed, and, unlike architecture, don't move.' - Oscar Wilde



 

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