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  1. #21
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Walter are you a head doctor of some sort? How and when are these kind of photographs damaging? Has there been a study? I'm not saying that an image like this couldn't be damaging, but I suspect the conditions need to be 'right.' I also suspect the images can be positive (well, maybe not the one in question) influences as well.

    In the abstract censorship is bad. In practice some images can be bad. In practice censorship is worse. If documenting a kid being a kid can in some way damage them, then maybe the image shouldn't be published until the kid is of age and can give his/her ok to the image. I'm not convinced.

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  2. #22
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    When you have a house full of kids of mixed gender 5, 6, 7 and 7, and it is bedtime and you are the only babysitter, it is kinda hard to hold them down. You tell the boys "go here" and the girls "go there" and suddenly you find them all bare in one room playing air guitars just before bath time.

    All you can do is laugh. And believe me, 4 kids that age seems like a housefull.

    All of the wives said "how did you handle them all?" when they got back from ladies night out. I was still laughing.

    With 5 of them on another occasion, they all ate a whole watermelon and kept us awake all night long using the bathroom. That was funny too. But, we warned them not to. They snuck out in the night and ate it anyhow "to see what would happen". They got so desparate that there were at least 2 or 3 in the bathroom urging one another to 'hurry its an emergency'.

    Kids will be kids. We were treated to a day of "potty humor" after that episode.

    Kids don't give concent nor can they, but they do a lot of odd things all on their own.

    Is it evil? Bad? Tasteless? Or, just very funny?

    PE

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jd callow View Post
    Walter are you a head doctor of some sort? How and when are these kind of photographs damaging? Has there been a study?
    The fact that adult sexual interference with children is damaging is well documented. There probably aren't enough cases of high-profile artists publishing child pornography to get data on this specifically, so we have to generalize.

    As a bit of an aside or question for debate, which I'd point out isn't the crux of my argument here, one could imagine that if that image was being distributed by pedophiles for purposes of masturbation, it would be called child porn without much debate. Why does high-profile "artistic" publication change its status?
    The universe is a haunted house. -Coil
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    We might not like the images, and the way Nan Golding works but she is photographing aspects of modern society which many of us would prefer not to be associated with. Her work will grow in importance over the next few years because she transcends different strata's of society, and is documenting a way of life.

    Ian
    The content of her work as a whole is not the issue here; only this one photograph is.
    The universe is a haunted house. -Coil
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  5. #25
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walter23 View Post
    As a bit of an aside or question for debate, which I'd point out isn't the crux of my argument here, one could imagine that if that image was being distributed by pedophiles for purposes of masturbation, it would be called child porn without much debate. Why does high-profile "artistic" publication change its status?
    There's more context and history there than just the label of "art." This is one image that is part of a meaningful body of work that affects how we read it.

    Some will say that each individual image needs to stand on its own, but as I see it, some work that way, and some don't. An individual Becher photograph of a water tower is nothing special, but nine of them in one frame is interesting. Nan Goldin's work is narrative and project oriented, and makes more sense as a book or an exhibition than as so many individual photographs. If you look at the photograph in isolation, then I would say you're not really looking at Goldin's work, which is a project.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  6. #26
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walter23 View Post
    The fact that adult sexual interference with children is damaging is well documented. There probably aren't enough cases of high-profile artists publishing child pornography to get data on this specifically, so we have to generalize.

    As a bit of an aside or question for debate, which I'd point out isn't the crux of my argument here, one could imagine that if that image was being distributed by pedophiles for purposes of masturbation, it would be called child porn without much debate. Why does high-profile "artistic" publication change its status?
    You or in this case the cops added the sexual context. I wouldn't call it pornography if it was used by pedophiles. Your aside is what scares me and what I am sure motivated the gallery and the cops.

    I suspect David's point is right on the money. I am probably wrong to disparage the single image without seeing it as it was intended -- part of a larger grouping.

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  7. #27
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    Well, the book "Show Me" apparently had no bad effects. Kids running naked and etc have apparently no effect. See National Geographic where children up to about 10 run naked.

    I'm not in favor of this, but it is a matter of culture.

    PE

  8. #28
    Sparky's Avatar
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    It seems to me the problem is not so much the naked kids - so much as those who would sexualize them... (in this case, that would be the police) and they should be locked up, IMO.

    To call it porn seems a bit ridiculous when you have domestic animals walking around with their genitals freely hanging out for everyone to see. Seems a more important issue to address if you're going to go there...

  9. #29
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    Oh, that'd be a hoot, putting pants on cats and dogs... just see how well that'd go over...

  10. #30
    Matthew Gorringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les McLean View Post
    These things happen every day in some families throughout the world. How about images of naked children in African countries, are we going to see those banned too?
    Ah but they're black and they're African. We expect them to be exploited by NG style photographers to feed our vicarious wunderlust. They're also expected to be naked and starving.

    Given the headline I mentioned at the start of the thread I suspect that the real reason this one has got so much attention this time is that it's part of a collection owned by a very prominent gay man.

    I'm amazed that this would happen in England; MW USA yes. Parochial, colonial Australia, maybe. But Europe? Never.
    Matt Gorringe

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