Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,300   Posts: 1,535,858   Online: 947
      
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 92
  1. #41
    johnnywalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    British Columbia, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,255
    Images
    78
    I don't know how the girl became dressed up, but kids do play dress-up. I don't think it's provocative. The biggest mystery to me is why anyone would buy it, but I guess as David said, you'd have to see the rest of her work to see where it fit.
    If I had been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better arrangement of the Universe.
    Alfonso the Wise, 1221-1284

  2. #42

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,183
    Images
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattg View Post
    They do have pedals though, mmmmmmmm pedals.

    The reference to Victorian public morals rings very true David.
    Yeah, not exploiting nude children for some lame-ass artistic non-statement sure is backwards morality.

    Look, I've got no problem with edgy stuff. I love Joel Peter Witkin, for example. But none of his corpses are going to become screwed up because of their participation in his photography , and his adult models already are screwed up
    Last edited by walter23; 10-13-2007 at 12:00 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    The universe is a haunted house. -Coil
    .

  3. #43
    Matthew Gorringe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    461
    Images
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by walter23 View Post
    Yeah, not exploiting nude children for some lame-ass artistic non-statement sure is backwards morality.
    You've lost me here Walter, what are you saying?

    What we're talking about here is the fact that this photo, that I think shows a naked child and nothing much more, has been removed from display by police on the basis that it constitutes child pornography.

    Naked children != pornography, just as naked piano legs != naked ladies ankles.
    Matt Gorringe

  4. #44

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    U.K.
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,355
    I do not like state interference in matters of art, and certainly am not happy with censorship.

    However, I'm not sorry if this picture proves not such a 'golden egg' but more of an albatross to those who have invested in it, showing by doing so a singular lack of taste in my view (which of course in itself is not a crime).

    The "obscenity" to me is the involvement of a great deal of money and status in this sort of 'Art' scene combined in this instance with the nature of the image and that a young child cannot give informed consent and cannot possibly understand or collude with the intent of the photographer.

    In this case I'm not at all convinced I like the intent - it is too much placed in that initial wave of 1970's liberalism that many women, and children, took a little while to realise was defined by others rather than themselves (men, adults). Later they began to learn (and there's much learning still to be done) to have the power and audacity to take control of their personal definitions themselves.

  5. #45

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Northern Aquitaine
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by walter23 View Post
    ...some lame-ass artistic non-statement...
    Yes, I'd agree that as artistic statements go, it is saying absolutely nothing new -- at least, nothing new to me, nor, I would think, to many others. The trouble is, when do you start to censor lack of originality? And as I asked in an earlier post, who censors it? And why? Do we censor work because we find it tedious or banal? (That would cut out a lot of 'fine art photography' for me.) Or because there are naked children in it? Or because there are any children in it, and children can't give informed consent? Or because it's pretentious or overpriced or (frequently) both? Or because it's in bad taste?

    Having now looked at a fair amount of Nan Goldin's stuff on the internet, I have to say that I find this pic to be the worst of a bad lot, against strong competition, and that I can see little reason for its existence except shock value to spice up an ineffably tedious 'body of work'. Her work was linked with Sally Mann's on a couple of sites (presumably on the grounds of naked children), but I find Sally Mann an infinitely better photographer.

    That's the trouble. It's opinion. It seems to me that Art is trying to claim the same status as Religion, as something that cannot be questioned. Someone can say that they believe in almost anything, no matter how absurd, but It's Their Religion and the rest of us have to shut up and go away. Some artists seem to claim the same privilege (equally indefensibly) for Their Art.

    Is there an answer? Probably not. David's original point about the sheer incompetence of the gallery is well made. Were the kids just playing? Quite possibly. If you think about it, belly dancers do sometimes lie back in much the same position and shake their breasts; we're just not accustomed to how observant a little girl can be, though I rather wonder where and why she has seen much belly dancing. As for her being ashamed in later years, that happens with almost all children and young people and almost all photographs, including the most innocent and unexceptionable. By according this one special status, we are indeed promoting the sexualization of children by and for adults.

    Finally, a couple of photokinas back there was a display in the main hall which included children of varying ages with no clothes on, including a frontal picture of young brother and sister squatting down with their knees well apart: I think they were holding their new baby sibling. No-one blinked; or if they did, there was never any fuss about their blinking. Most sane Europeans don't seem too worried about this sort of thing. What is the constituency of that small group that does? How international is it? Which nations?
    Free Photography Information on My Website
    http://www.rogerandfrances.com

  6. #46
    Ian Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    West Midlands, UK, and Turkey
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    16,247
    Images
    148
    Roger, David has made no comments on this thread about the gallery's "sheer incompetence", what he actually said was:

    "What do people think of this case? I feel on the one hand the image in question was needlessly provocative, on the other I think it ominous that the gallery and the owner of the work have reacted so extremely and prematurely (surely if the police had felt the work was obscene, they would have ordered the show closed immediately?). Would be interested in others' views."

    He might well agree that the whole matter does appear totally incompetent, but we can't put those words in his mouth

    Ian

  7. #47

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Northern Aquitaine
    Shooter
    35mm RF
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Roger, David has made no comments on this thread about the gallery's "sheer incompetence", what he actually said was:

    "What do people think of this case? I feel on the one hand the image in question was needlessly provocative, on the other I think it ominous that the gallery and the owner of the work have reacted so extremely and prematurely (surely if the police had felt the work was obscene, they would have ordered the show closed immediately?). Would be interested in others' views."

    He might well agree that the whole matter does appear totally incompetent, but we can't put those words in his mouth

    Ian
    Dear Ian,

    You are of course absolutely right, and I apologize to him if he doesn't agree. And even if he does, for that matter, for putting words in his mouth.

    Cheers,

    Roger
    Free Photography Information on My Website
    http://www.rogerandfrances.com

  8. #48
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    22,972
    Images
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by walter23 View Post
    Yeah, of course. Kids being nude is no big deal, in public or not. Same with photography thereof. But this image kind of jumps into an uncomfortable area that goes a little beyond just nudity. Perhaps just in the eye of the beholder, but that's how I see it.
    You have apparently never seen "Show Me".

    The poses can be somewhat extreme in some cases.

    PE

  9. #49
    David H. Bebbington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    East Kent, United Kingdom
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    2,364
    Images
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    Roger, David has made no comments on this thread about the gallery's "sheer incompetence" ...
    True, I didn't, but now that the word "competence" has been mentioned, I wonder what it means in this context. The gallery manager no doubt felt he/she was being competent (or professional) in taking steps to head off potential trouble (and there could well be background issues such as nervousness about future funding, a wish not to "rock the boat", etc.) but it would have taken only a little effort to ascertain, as others have mentioned, that the image in question has appeared in public on gallery walls and in a book and that an attempt by police to have the image in question removed from the Saatchi gallery some years ago was rebuffed by the gallery (and then abandoned by the police). It was surely have been "competent" to know this, or find it out.

    On the other hand, one of the qualities we can expect of gallery managers is the courage of their convictions and the willingness to defend artistic expressions against hysterical puritans, and here the Baltic has failed dramatically. On reflection, therefore, I would call the Baltic management incompetent - it is very clear what Nan Goldin is about and what can be expected from a show of her work - to go to all the trouble of securing the loan of the works, curating and hanging them, etc. and then chickening out makes no sense at all.

    Regards,

    David

  10. #50
    Dave Wooten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Vegas/mysterious mohave co. az, Big Pine Key Fla.
    Shooter
    ULarge Format
    Posts
    2,714
    Images
    20
    [FONT="Arial Black"][/FONT]



 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin