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  1. #81
    Ian Leake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Heath View Post
    hi Dave

    well said, and you raise valid points, but surely what happened after the gallery employee raised the issue to authorities was not under their (the employee's) control

    if the episode became a messy, expensive and futile excercise isn't that another matter that raises more questions

    why did it become messy?

    how do the authorities handle such issues?

    who are/what is the CPS and why/how do they get to decide such issues?

    who/what should decide such issues?

    Ray
    The authorities seem to have handled this by the book which is, on balance, the right thing to do. One can't expect the average police constable to know the background of any particular photograph. The CPS (Crown Prosecution Service - in the UK the police investigate and then pass a dossier of evidence to the CPS who decide whether to prosecute) also seem to have been sensible about this.

    The lack of judgement is clearly within the gallery. And because of this poor judgement they've not only lost an exhibition and made themselves look ridiculous, but they've also wasted police and CPS time that could have been spent dealing with some real criminals.

    Ray, I infer from your earlier post that you consider this person to be a 'whistle blower' not a moron. It seems to have been the gallery management who called in the police. I'd expect the management of a contemporary art gallery to have an understanding of contemporary art. And if they're involved in a 'big name' exhibition then I'd expect them to have done some research on the artist's background and all works to be displayed. It seems to me that they did none of these, instead they had a panicky reaction born out of ignorance. That's incompetence not whistle blowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Heath View Post
    why does anyone need to view such images in other than a personal, private or family setting?
    That's not a fair question. It's using the same argument that authoritarian politicians routinely trot out when they're taking away our civil liberties: "Why would any law abiding citizen complain about... ?" It implies that people arguing the other case are criminals, or at best apologists for criminals.

    In a liberal society we have to defend the rights of people 'who aren't the same as me' to do things when our response is 'I wouldn't do that.' Given that this particular photograph had already been assessed by the authorities, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect a gallery to have shown it.

  2. #82
    Andy K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Heath View Post

    who are/what is the CPS and why/how do they get to decide such issues?

    who/what should decide such issues?

    The Crown Prosecution Service


    -----------My Flickr-----------
    Anáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh.

  3. #83
    Ian Leake's Avatar
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    ...and here's an article that says it better than I can: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/3933/

  4. #84
    Andy K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Leake View Post
    ...and here's an article that says it better than I can: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/3933/
    Thank you for posting that Ian. Much better said than I (my bold type):

    'When it comes to looking at children, our very gaze, it seems, has lost its innocence. As Cosmo Landesman pointed out in
    The Sunday Times: ‘The naked child, once a normal part of public life, has become a public nuisance – a source of embarrassment and parental anxiety for one simple reason: paedophilia. Or to be more precise, paedophobia, the fear that someone is secretly taking pictures of our innocent child and then posting them on the internet and using them for perverted sexual gratification.’

    <edit>

    Yet even in this case, it was the sensitivities and insecurities of a few individuals that led to an installation being removed from a public exhibition. This is another example of the ‘tyranny of the minority’ where a handful of people can call on the authorities to decide what is or is not appropriate for the rest of us to see.


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    Anáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh.

  5. #85

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    I do not consider the photograph child porn, nor do I think it should be censored, but that doesn't mean I have to like it - or that I am necessarily right in thinking that way.

    I think the wider implications of this are quite interesting from an ethical point of view, and it would be interesting to set the Baltic affair to one side for a moment.

    How far are individuals allowed to question 'Art'? If a work is hung, or shown, - does that mean it is always unacceptable to object to it?

    What do people make, for example, of the 'Starving Dog as Art'??
    Last edited by catem; 10-28-2007 at 07:27 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #86
    DaveOttawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Heath View Post
    hi Dave

    well said, and you raise valid points, but surely what happened after the gallery employee raised the issue to authorities was not under their (the employee's) control

    if the episode became a messy, expensive and futile excercise isn't that another matter that raises more questions

    why did it become messy?

    how do the authorities handle such issues?

    who are/what is the CPS and why/how do they get to decide such issues?

    who/what should decide such issues?

    why does anyone need to view such images in other than a personal, private or family setting?

    Ray
    News reports indicate the employee was part of management at the gallery, and while they weren't in control of the police and CPS actions I would suggest the course of those actions was easily foreseeable once the call had been made. The action of the lender is not surprising either.

    No one NEEDS to view Goldin's work but it would be best if it wasn't, in effect, censored in this way at least in my opinion.

  7. #87
    DaveOttawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catem View Post
    How far are individuals allowed to question 'Art'? If a work is hung, or shown, - does that mean it is always unacceptable to object to it?
    One answer would that art often challenges and questions us, art and artists can expect to be vigourously challenged and questioned back. That way the art might actually mean something to us.
    Of course that is not so easy when you can't see the art in question...

  8. #88
    Ian Leake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catem View Post
    I do not consider the photograph child porn, nor do I think it should be censored, but that doesn't mean I have to like it - or that I am necessarily right in thinking that way.
    I agree. In my opinion it's a quite unpleasant picture which is not to my taste at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by catem View Post
    I think the wider implications of this are quite interesting from an ethical point of view, and it would be interesting to set the Baltic affair to one side for a moment.

    How far are individuals allowed to question 'Art'? If a work is hung, or shown, - does that mean it is always unacceptable to object to it?

    What do people make, for example, of the 'Starving Dog as Art'??
    I think you've asked two questions here Cate. The first is easy: it's always acceptable to object to anything, so long as you don't employ violence or the threat of violence. But the objector should also be prepared to accept that they may be ignored...

    You're second question is harder. My first reaction was that this turns my stomach and is quite outrageous. But then I got to thinking...

    This Columbian seems to have demonstrated a level of cruelty that I don't think would be acceptable in Western Europe or North America. But maybe what he did is not so remarkable in the context of an extremely violent society. Just to be clear, I'm not condoning what he seems to have done (I use "seems" because some of the discussions I've seen report that the dog didn't actually die), but I do think it's more complex than it appears on the surface.

  9. #89
    Ian Leake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveOttawa View Post
    Of course that is not so easy when you can't see the art in question...
    Did anyone else notice that this picture couldn't be found using Google? I decided to look for it after the broohaha had been raging for a while, but even with the title of the photograph it was nowhere to be seen. I gave up after about an hour and I tried Yahoo - and found it instantly. I wonder whether the technology Google uses to censor democracy activists in China has been put to other uses. And if so, who decides what I'm allowed to see on the Internet?

  10. #90
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    I found it it using Google Images, took a bit of finding an uncensored version but certainly not difficult. I have to use Google UK as well google.com always switches to google.com.tr in Turkish.

    Perhaps its very interested that almost all APUG members who have posted on this thread supported the right for the image to be shown, despite the fact that no-one liked it. Also not supporting the Gallery's Assistant Directors action.

    Ian

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