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  1. #51
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcallow
    Every time I reread my own posts and see that tag line I instinctively go to "Report this post."
    Who are you going to report?

    W?
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les McLean
    Why is it that some analogue users cannot discuss digital without the ocasional comment quoted above. I'm very committed to black and white darkroom and silver prints but I also happen to feel the same about digital image making and do feel offended when I'm referred to as a "ranting radical pixelidiot" although I'm sure that John Voss is not deliberately trying to offend me or anyone else for that matter. I agree that there are people out there who are heavily involved in all the gimmicks and such that is available in their world but they enjoy it so lets not use emotive language and phrases to describe them. I've said many times both in posts and to photographers that I've encouraged to join the forum that APUG is an excellent place, full of passionate photographers with a lot of information to share and that it is the most well mannered and civil group that I've had the pleasure to associate with on the net. By all means have your say about the pros and cons of digital but please use less potentially abusive language. Thank you for reading the rant.
    I completely agree with this statement. The constant bashing of digital photography is the same as the vice versa attitude found on digital photography websites.

    Ricardo

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les McLean
    Why is it that some analogue users cannot discuss digital without the ocasional comment quoted above. I'm very committed to black and white darkroom and silver prints but I also happen to feel the same about digital image making and do feel offended when I'm referred to as a "ranting radical pixelidiot" although I'm sure that John Voss is not deliberately trying to offend me or anyone else for that matter.... [my edit]...By all means have your say about the pros and cons of digital but please use less potentially abusive language. Thank you for reading the rant.

    Les, I belong to another photographic forum where discussions very similar to this one have been taking place. In a couple of threads I have forwarded my preference for analogue photography, using cameras which are not battery dependent.
    Because of this I was subjected to a myriad of comments ranging from 'maybe you're a hundred years old or somethin' to 'you hypocrite!' (because I cropped the edges my photos for display on the internet using an image editor after scanning them). Needless to say I rarely visit that forum now. If anyone wishes to view one of those threads it is here... http://www.toxpose.com/forums/viewto...eb3a123c90fb86 but be prepared to read some quite immature 'discussion'.
    This is also why I am so pleased to have found APUG. The level of maturity and open minded discussion is unsurpassed. In the two weeks or so I have been here I have learned more about photography than in the last year at the other forum, or indeed in the last twenty odd years of farting about as a 'hobbyist'.

    Anyhoo back to the point I was making, I think even if people try to be objective, eventually the 'anything can be faked digitally' mentality and the 'analogue is old fashioned and slow' preconception start to get in the way of proper discussion. So I try to be thick skinned.

    PS. I saw Lomography mentioned here. I have had a Lomo LCA since 1997 and have often used it alongside my Zorki 4K. I find it to be a very refreshing aside to 'planned' photography, with quite often surprisingly good results. Although I have never cross-processed with it. Different tools for different jobs.

    Andy.


    -----------My Flickr-----------
    Anáil nathrach, ortha bháis is beatha, do chéal déanaimh.

  4. #54
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    Les,

    I agree with your points about the needless emnity between some members of the two camps. I think in some part this is due to a defensiveness about each of the choices made.

    Anyone who has gone out and spent a month's mortgage on a gadget (whether a digital camera or (in my case!) a 4-blade Beard easel) often feels a need to justify the purchase. Knocking somebody else's choice is often a lazy (and inviting!) way of doing this and yes, I'm as guilty as the next man.

    There is also a defensiveness from us in the film camp when we hear from many quarters that our hobby / livelihood is threatened and about to be replaced with something that we don't particularly want.

    Whilst anyone can go into WH Smiths and pick up any number of digital-only mags you can't now get a film-only mag over the counter. I've subscribed to Practical Photography for a number of years but I've just cancelled the subscription. When I started it was almost all film oriented; it's now about 75% digital, so I'm getting much less magazine for my money. (Their last two "monochrome specials" had no trad darkroom content at all and their last issue contains several pages of "The Case For Digital" with no analogue rebuttal. I can take a hint, just drop an anvil on me...)

    If analogue is seen to survive and coexist with digital over the next few years then hopefully this defensiveness will drop away. We may even get to the stage similar to the 35mm world where Nikonians are happy to use their state-of-the-art optical miracles right next to where Canonites wield their lenses containing dressed-up milk-bottle glass! (I'm joking! Stop throwing things!!)

    If digital keeps on threatening the analogue world then I can't see things improving at all...
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

  5. #55

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    A bunch of hand wringing and bad mouthing digital will never change the fact that in 10-20 years over 95% of all the photographic images created in the world will be by a digital camera. What that also means is that 99% of those images (just like analogue) will be for personal documentaion and most that are attempted as creative will be only slightly interesting.

    In the end, so what if digital dominates the world of photography? There will ALWAYS be a source for traditional products. You may have two films and two papers to choose from in any format. All that means is people like Sandy King, or Gordon Hutchings, or Patrick Gainer and all the others out there who love to push materials to new capabilities will find ways to make the limited materials fill the traditionalists creative needs.

    Silver based images and alternative methods will become more rare and thus more valuable. I don't remeber where I read the article but the subject was the future of photography and the author said that while there will always be traditional film based phtography it will be limited to a small fringe element of ecentrics. I will put money down that the work of the eccentrics will be more valuable to collectors, galleries and customers then digital. The nature of silver and platinum, and highly skilled, labor intensive processes such as gum or carbon will always be more valuable.

    On the other hand, no casual buyer who buys a photograph to hang on a wall in the office or home is going to give a wit if it is digitally produced or traditional. They are going to buy the image they like. So what is so different there? Create the best work possible and let the market decide if it is good.

    I have seen very beautiful digital prints in galleries. They were gorgeous as good as any silver print I have seen including AZO contacts. They have a different look or finish to them. But when I first saw the work on the wall, I did not approach it with the idea, "hmm, I better reserve judgement untill I find out if it is digital or not".

    I think we spend way to much mental energy worrying about digital. Go out create, have fun and learn.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  6. #56
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    [QUOTE=FrankB]

    There is also a defensiveness from us in the film camp when we hear from many quarters that our hobby / livelihood is threatened and about to be replaced with something that we don't particularly want.

    I've subscribed to Practical Photography for a number of years but I've just cancelled the subscription. When I started it was almost all film oriented; it's now about 75% digital, so I'm getting much less magazine for my money. (Their last two "monochrome specials" had no trad darkroom content at all and their last issue contains several pages of "The Case For Digital" with no analogue rebuttal. I can take a hint, just drop an anvil on me...)

    Frank,

    Less than three years ago I was earning all of my living teaching and writing about black and white photography and life was getting tough due to lack of work and interest in the traditional skills. My only option wass to address digital and I did so with some trepidation and lots of uncertaint about the qualities offered by the medium so I understand your comments re the threat to our passion. Fortunately, IMO, digital is not the souless medium that many photographers claim it to be although it does not compete with the type of beauty that asilver print gives us, but, I think it gives us another dimension to work with.

    I find your comments about Practical Photography interesting for when I wrote my column for them I wanted to do digital articles from time to time but was always told that they had no interest. I guess they had to start catching up with the world sometime.

  7. #57
    Flotsam's Avatar
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    I haven't really thought this through so I am just tossing it out for opinions.

    It is true that you hear a lot of worry about a future where because of the popularity of digital, analog materials will stop being manufactured and traditional photography will cease to exist.
    But it seems to me that the huge snapshot consumer market said goodbye to B&W in favor of color many decades ago, and it has represented a relatively tiny part of the commercial applications of photography for many years. And yet today I can buy a variety of B&W films, formats, chemistry and paper from a number of convenient sources.
    Now the snapshooters a commercial photographers are flocking to digital. The question that I ask is: Will digital really affect a market that that seems to be doing pretty well despite having already lost the vast majority of its photographic consumers long, long ago?
    That is called grain. It is supposed to be there.
    =Neal W.=

  8. #58
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    Hi Les,

    I hear what you're saying about the pro's of digital photography. At the end of the day it's horses for courses; each medium has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

    As someone who taught himself to program in Tandy's at the age of ten and has been making a living out of the technical end of the IT profession for the last fifteen years, I should really be leading the charge... However, after working with computers for so long I feel the need to get away from them every once in a while. Traditional photography and darkroom work gives me the opportunity to do this, and I do get angry as the materials that I need for my hobby are becoming less available as time goes on.

    As far as PP goes, I suppose they have to follow the market stampede, even if the same people already have a pure-digital sister magazine on the shelf... What annoys me is their current pretence that they are being even-handed between the two mediums...! If they didn't want your digital articles before, now might be a good time to put them forward.

    All the best,

    Frank
    The destination is important, but so is the journey

  9. #59
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    [QUOTE=FrankB]
    As far as PP goes, edit...........If they didn't want your digital articles before, now might be a good time to put them forward.

    Not interested Frank, I signed up with their hated opposition, What Digital Camera a part of IPC, the first articles appear in October.

  10. #60
    Sean's Avatar
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    "As someone who taught himself to program in Tandy's at the age of ten and has been making a living out of the technical end of the IT profession for the last fifteen years, I should really be leading the charge... However, after working with computers for so long I feel the need to get away from them every once in a while."

    I'm in the exact same boat. Two days ago I was working on a server issue at the office until 2am , so I am not liking digital at the moment!
    The thought of spending this coming weekend photoshopping images on my pc for hours?... not possible without getting severely nauseous. Photography unplugged is all I need to keep sane sometimes

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