Either Bill Schwab has unbelievably deep pockets (in which case good for him!) and does not care what well-printed books cost, or he knows nothing about publishing photography books. Black Book is a commercial venture on the part of the publishers. If sufficient APUG books were printed it is inconceivable to me how it could cost anyone $500 to $1,500. Those are ridiculous numbers. Unless the print run is, say, 40 books or 20 books. And that is not a print run.
No, Joel, the reason the book I envisioned was so much less expensive than the numbers Schwab throws out is not that I would be donating my time. It is because I have published over 40 books--and have had them printed in a number of countries--in the USA, Europe, and Asia--and I know what I am doing and where to get the best prices for the best quality work.
Ian: that I do not have prices at my fingertips does not mean that things have not been thought out (very carefully) by me. I don't know where you come up with that non-sequitur and imply they have not been thought out.
But look. Obviously neither you, Ian, nor Bill Schwab really care about quality. I am beating my head against a dead horse here.
If anyone would like me to work on a high-quality APUG book, send me a PM. Otherwise, be content with a high-cost POD book. I wish everyone good luck with this.
Michael A. Smith
What a fascinating thread...
"They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."
— Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs
Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick
And, Now For Something Completely Different.
The issue of quality is relative, what's being missed is what degree of qulaity is required.
Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith
The extreme of high quality is beyond even your budget Michael, I've seen what's possible where every single page of B&W photographs in a book on Lewis Carrol/Rev Charles Dodgson's work was individuallly colour proofed and as perfect a match to the original prints as possible obtained. I saw the proofs as it was being put together. That's beyond our bugets.
Yes quality should be as high as a budget allows but there needs to be a a degree of rationality, this is a book of images by/for Forum members not all the images will warrant the highest quality you print to, it's just not fasible without a high cost.
What's being missed is the active membership and while the number of subscribers & members is 51k it's probably less than 500 very active members & subscribers, less when it comes to the Galleries etc.
While the LF forum is smaller a far higher proportion of it's members are at a much more experienced level, and they were happy to use Blurb.
I'm not against going one better or using you/Lodima Press or another publisher far from it provided we have proper figures and costings and a plan that ensures the project still goes forward if litho printing isn't viable.
It's the running before the projects begun to crawl let alone walk that's at issue, the numbers so far just don't add up.
The mistake is that your offer has jumped the gun before the Forum as a whole has had time to discuss/debate come up with ideas and generally see how much support there really is.
Last edited by Ian Grant; 07-26-2011 at 06:38 PM. Click to view previous post history.
Michael, I am not a publisher or have any agenda in this, but the personal attacks have to stop. We need to put the wheels back on the bus and understand all the facts.
The simple fact is people just want to know what all the options are, what the costs are, and what is the most appropriate course of action is when all the pieces to this puzzle are reviewed and understood. Bill offered his opinion on behalf of the APUG membership by request. He has experience in publishing just as you have, each with different points of view. It does not make either view of these experiences of lesser or greater value than the other. Bill gave us a high level estimate based upon his experience as a photographer and publisher with no axe to grind. We have no high level estimates from Lodima yet. We need to know as much as we can to make a decision. How can we set expectations with interested parties of the APUG community until we know ALL the facts?
Then there is another important part on how many images maybe submitted, and how they are submitted. How are the images selected, and impartially reviewed? None of this criteria is known right now. There are more questions than actual facts.
As I think we can all attest, It's not an easy task to get potentially thousands of people aligned and in agreement.
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I think we are in a loophole in this thread. Quotes for costs cannot be produces until a clear idea is on the table about how many photographs, photographers, what kind of book.
Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith
On the other hand, we cannot have an idea about how many photographers, what kind of book etc. can get out of this endeavour, if we don't know first the cost for this off-set hypothesis.
Frankly, let's put some hypothesis on the table, and start from that. If we begin a referendum on each of this hypothetical parameters, this is going to end very soon. An hypothesis is an hypothesis. Is not a decision. Is something you put on the table because, otherwise, your reasoning cannot proceed further!
So let's put on the table some hypothetical figures to have some figures back.
We suppose 100 photographers to buy the book.
We suppose each photographer to buy 4 books, on average.
We suppose each contributing photographer to agree to buy four copies, if his work is selected. (One you keep, one is a Christmas gifts for your mother-in-law, two build spider-nets waiting for the heirs to inherit).
We suppose no other sale beyond those 400 hundreds copies. 400 must cover costs.
We suppose 200 pages per book, 2 images per photographer.
We suppose softbound.
We suppose no flaps.
Whichever other hypothesis, we go the cheap route.
Given those hypothesis, how would each off-set copy cost? How would each "selected" photographer have to spend for 4 copies?
When we have this $X figure I think we know where the ballpark figure is. Then APUG might launch a mass e-mail informing people (I suggest: informing everybody) of this possibility. If much less than 100 persons answer, project is cancelled.
If only 100 persons answer, and only 100 photographers are selected, the 200 works are selected among the 100 photographers work, 2 works by photographer. E.g. an off-set book with no selection.
If Lodima doesn't want to put its brand on the book based on quality / artistic merit, but is prepared to volunteer the technical work, this can be published as an "anonymous" (so to speak) publisher. If Lodima doesn't want to volunteer the work for something that does not carry its signature, project is scrapped (or an alternative volunteer is to be found).
If the adhesions are many but people don't like the one-juror route, this is not going to change the $X figure. Let's first understand where the $X figure is. We will THEN discuss what kind of selection, if any.
POD IMO has nothing to do with off-set printing. POD is unfit for a "quality" book and off-set is unfit for "vanity" book.
POD is something that is, in a sense, "always" available, whatever the number of participants. With POD cost is not so much a deterrent as quality and "satisfaction" is. With off-set, quality and "satisfaction" are not a deterrent, cost is.
$X is what we need now to know at which price off-set printing is proposeable to APUG community and have adhesions. The number of adhesion will decide if off-set is viable or not.
Last edited by Diapositivo; 07-26-2011 at 06:52 PM. Click to view previous post history.
I can't see any contributor buying more than one book.
But that's a good staring point for prices Fabrizio
New revolutionary Kodak technology where, how, how much?
As I mentioned in another thread, I keep reading about this new revolutionary Kodak printing technology, which would be able to allow print-on-demand works with 600dpi resolution.
That would have quality rivalling off-set printing with the scalability of print-on-demand.
Has anybody seen anything printed with this technology?
It's not just for the APUG book.
If this thing exist, I'm going to buy Kodak shares...
Once again, it was not my intention to step on anyone's toes. Unfortunately I misjudged just how big those "toes" could be.
Apologies to all.
Yes, and it is pretty impressive, but I am certain not to everyone. I have samples from a local printer I have worked with that have the machine. It even does textures and I am told smells soon as well. Apparently they are very busy with the brochure/menu/etc business.
Originally Posted by Diapositivo
Last edited by bill schwab; 07-26-2011 at 07:32 PM. Click to view previous post history.