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  1. #201
    coigach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab View Post
    Unless you have many, many people interested, the thought that you can do a high-quality, offset book for $25.00 per contributor is way off base. I don't care what anyone says, it's that simple. Don't take my word for it. Please.... do some research. Call a few printers, "quality" ones and give them your proposed specs in a mixture of duotone and four color. Tell them that you want it case bound with cloth cover... and even add a slipcover. Then factor in pre-press. Are you going to scan these yourselves? Not a good idea unless you have someone very experienced designing and putting this thing together. I think you will all be very surprised at your quote. Let me tell you now that you're not talking something as inexpensive as $10,000.00.

    And even at 10,000.00 for 1000 books, how many times does $25 bucks go into $10,000.00? You think you can get 400 people to contribute when you can't even get 60 people to respond to a survey?

    Consider you do get 400 people to contribute 25 bucks and you do in fact get the pipe dream of a book containing 400 photographers... (800 pages with bios as currently talked about) for 10,000 dollars. What are you going to do with the other 600 books? Whose garage do they go into? Of course, you could sell those extra 600 books, but do you know how hard it is even for someone well-known to sell 600 books?

    All I am suggesting is to stop tossing in all your vanity fueled dreams and actually do some footwork. Do the numbers....then plan the book around something feasible and not a dream.
    Thanks for your input Bill.

    It's great to have the knowledge of someone who produces excellent work combined with real-life expertise in selling photographic books. Plenty to chew over in your post (especially for someone who dreams of having a book of their own photos someday!! ).

  2. #202
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Unfortunately Shawn I think this particular publication will be a compromise and end up POD, personall I would far rather a high end litho printed publication but the way it was proposed just doesn't stack up in terms of practicality and economic logic. It is what we should be aiming for but perhaps we have to get this first publication out first as POD and use that as a platform to improve on.

    It would be a great pity to see someone like you opt out just because it went down the POD route, after all quality affects everyone. I can understand your concerns about POD quality and of course that will possibly differ depending which country we order/buy in.

    There needs to be more input from people with experience in the industry, involved with printing as well as design, and also people who've used POD extensively.

    Joel has come up with a good idea now it needs some level headed realism in how to get the best possible publication at a reasonable cost with our limited resources.

    Ian

  3. #203

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    it seems that blurp offers a money back guarantee for defective books
    i don't really understand the hassle other than exchanging it
    i trying to find out how that works, do they pay for shipping
    and return shipping /rma &C ...

    while i love books, hand crafted and well printed books
    at a certain point one has to realize that a small group can't afford
    those sorts of things unless someone else is paying for it

  4. #204

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    bill

    thanks for both your posts -
    i know i appreciate your experience/s and knowledge
    in this area !

    john

  5. #205

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    I had a blurb book printed wrongly (pages out of order), I emailed them and they replied within a few hours, they wanted a photo of the problem, I snapped a shot sent if off and a new book as posted out. I got to keep the old one. It was actually really good service.
    Steve.

  6. #206
    Colin Corneau's Avatar
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    I've heard good things about Blurb service too, but I did a book of my China work through them -- worked on the files in Photoshop to a high degree, and I found the result mailed to me was muddy...darker midtones and shadows just lost completely.

    As a few others have mentioned, the next step logically seems to be to gauge interest and get a credible idea of the numbers of ppl involved, and use that as a basis to figure out the next step -- how to print the book. Once you have that, you find it much easier to assess costs and process.

    Step by step.
    "Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away and you've got their shoes."

    MY BLOG - www.reservedatalltimes.com
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post

    A couple of years ago a friend was going to get a POD book made in 100 copies. I convinced her to have the book printed by offset. Instead of about $5,000 for 100 copies, she was able to get 1,000 copies for $10,000. A POD book is less expensive if one is going to print only a very few copies, but otherwise it is not.

    Maybe I am missing something here. I would like someone to explain to me how a POD book, published in 1,000 copies is less expensive than a fine offset printed book.
    I don't understand why somebody here doesn't take Michael Smith seriously on the matter of off-set printing.

    We have a figure here: 1000 copies for $10.000. That's $10 per copy, printed off-set (without bells and whistles, I presume, but off-set nonetheless).

    Now if we make the hypothesis that we get 200 photographers involved, with those figures that's $50 per photographer, and each photographer would get 5 off-set books.

    I don't understand how $50 for 5 books is more expensive, or less desirable, than $40 for one book (as I suppose a quality POD would not cost less).

    The real "problems" we have here are:

    - what kind of selection do we make;
    - how many photographers, how many pictures per photographer;
    - do we really find 200 photographers willing to spend $50 ecc.

    What I don't understand is why the above figures quoted by Michael Smith, and that are derived from first-hand, real-life experience, are dismissed as some sort of an unrealistic dream.

    IMO POD is the way to go if the project only involves 30, 50 photographers.
    Off-set printing is the way to go if the project involves 200 or so photographers.

    The number of participants in the project naturally dictates the choice of printing technology.

    Actually the printing technology is probably the last thing to be decided, because it naturally stems from the number of participants.

    Other matters (what kind of book, which purpose, which selection, etc.) will have to be decided first. After that, one knows how many are the participants. After that, one knows which is the proper printing technology to adopt.

    After that, if POD is the only viable alternative, people who object to POD publishing will withdraw their participation - POD is "scalable" anyway and any project can be downscaled without problems if some participants don't want to be part of a POD project.

    Fabrizio
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 07-27-2011 at 03:07 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  8. #208
    guitstik's Avatar
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    Well put Fabrizio. I have no idea how to get the word out to as many people as possible except by starting a thread, done that. If anyone knows how to get the word out by face book or any other means please let us know.
    Thy heart -- thy heart! -- I wake and sigh,
    And sleep to dream till day
    Of the truth that gold can never buy
    Of the bawbles that it may.

    www.silverhalidephotography.com

  9. #209
    bill spears's Avatar
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    Yes it's a shame Michael wasn't supported more. A very experienced and respected publisher with huge knowledge of fine art reproduction, offering his services at a reduced rate to Apug..........
    Of course we would need more idea of the costs involved but until there are results from the initial survey (to give us an idea of how many are interested, or even if it's worth pursuing) we can't give him the information he requires.

    It's a shame that we have to rely totally on Apug members buying the book. I know these things don't sell well to the general book buying public but I'd think most Apuggers would know at least one other person outside Apug who would love to own a beautiful quality coffee table book of black and white photos.
    Digital photography is like virtual sex........ you never actually touch the real thing..... or get your hands dirty

  10. #210
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    I would be interested in a high quality book as Lodima produces, especially if the price was in the $25 to $50 range. Print on Demand sounds like the ideal technology for a small project like this, but only if the quality is up there. Without having seen a photo book produced this way I am very skeptical.

    Some random thoughts/opinions about the book itself:
    - Print the book with image area in a square format. I hate seeing one orientation get short changed in print area because the page is too narrow/short. It's my one gripe with Lens Work.
    - Something in the 10x10 to 14x14 size image area would really show off most images well. Then 8x10 contacts being shown at life size in the smallest size.
    - Hard cover is nice, but not if it really drives up the price

    As far as what photos to include, I am more inclined towards an open process representative of the APUG membership. It may inflate the page count, but it will also increase the sales of the book. Having said that I am fearful of getting a book full of not so good images. However for the most part the quality of the galleries is really pretty good. I guess I can risk getting a few shots of low technical quality. Maybe someone(s) with experience in critiquing images could volunteer there time to help individuals pick out their strongest images.

    I would also be willing to volunteer some drum scans and photoshop work if people need them, but certainly not 100 of them.

    Michael A. Smith, what would the cost be to print a quality 220 page book about 14"x12" in various quantities? Say 200, 500 and 1000 units? Use your best guess for desired binding and covers.



 

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