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  1. #281

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    For what it is worth, I'd still feel much more comfortable submitting work to M. A. Smith than the APUG inner circle. And I still don't understand the over-the-top objections Ian Grant and others have to that idea. They must be truly afraid of, or insulted by the prospect of their respective submissions being annonymously subject to review along side "amateur" work. If all the submissions are from APUG, how is it any less an APUG book if Michael Smith makes the selections versus some APUG panel of "prolific posters"?

  2. #282
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    For what it is worth, I'd still feel much more comfortable submitting work to M. A. Smith than the APUG inner circle. And I still don't understand the over-the-top objections Ian Grant and others have to that idea. They must be truly afraid of, or insulted by the prospect of their respective submissions being anonymously subject to review along side "amateur" work. If all the submissions are from APUG, how is it any less an APUG book if Michael Smith makes the selections versus some APUG panel of "prolific posters"?

    Michael the majority don't want MAS to select work, so I'm just one of that MAJORITY so please don't get personal. My reasons for objecting to MAS being the selector are my own business and based on my own opinions, which ironically I have alluded to in the past in other threads.

    It's time you made some positive suggestions, instead of snide comments, no-one has suggested that "some APUG panel of "prolific posters" is going to do the selection except you more than once.

    You were asked if you'd help towards this project, because it's based on a broad consensus and also takes into account the Poll that was conducted, and you said no, so please don't go making false statements about this project or peoples motives.

    It's about a book that represents APUG in the best possible way, that's inclusive, gives every one a chance of having an image selected while being a true representation of the 10 years of APUG.

    Finally Michael don't assume that what I might have suggested in the early parts of these threads is what will happen, there's been a lot of thought and discussion to ensure that all interests are catered for. All any of us want is a book that's for all of us not an exclusive publication of a few prolific posters, that would actually be a very much easier project

    Ian
    Last edited by Ian Grant; 08-13-2011 at 06:05 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  3. #283
    coigach's Avatar
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    Have been on holiday for a week without internet access (imagine!) and have just been catching up on new posts.

    Thanks Michael for your quote, look forward to reading about the alternative option too.

  4. #284

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    I really don't get it. In my first long posting on this thread I predicated that some would take offense at my suggestions and indeed they have.

    Anyone who has read my postings to this thread can clearly see that they are thoughtful.

    I have made many positive suggestions and specific proposals. How Mr. Grant can say that I have not is a mystery to me.

    Grant: "It's about a book that represents APUG in the best possible way, that's inclusive, gives every one a chance of having an image selected while being a true representation of the 10 years of APUG."

    Well, duh. Of course it is. Nothing I have ever written would imply anything different.

    Grant: "All any of us want is a book that's for all of us not an exclusive publication of a few prolific posters."

    Well, duh again. All my suggestions and efforts have gone exactly to that end.

    Since I have clearly explained that I am open to all types of photography (see previous posts for details), perhaps Mr. Grant or some of the others can tell me why they object to my making the selections--anonymously. Is it that they are prolific posters and are afraid their work would not be included? Or is it something else? And if something else, what?

    I would think that if a group of "prolific posters" got together and made the selection not anonymously that favoritism would come into play. And even if the selections were ostensibly anonymous there would still be favoritism as these folks have looked at the APUG galleries and already know some of the work. Seems profoundly undemocratic to me, despite seeming more democratic than having one person make the selection who is previously unfamiliar with all of the work that would be submitted.

    Michael A. Smith

  5. #285
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Smith, it's so simple the MAJORITY don't want you involved in any editing. If you really want to know why then you need to ask people individually and that will take you quite a time.

    Aside from that there's NO disagreement between us on a board or personal level. I'm not the majority I just happen to agree with them and perhaps you should consider the majority's views.

    Please don't get personal in your attacks. And what on earth are you on about in that last paragraph only you and MichaelR1974 have suggested such a stupid way of selecting images

    Ian

  6. #286
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    The project is likely a bit ahead of itself in that numbers are the key aspect before getting too involved. Not to be negative, but 500-1000 books seems highly unlikely to me. Based on the activity I have seen in this thread and survey I would realistically put the purchase range of an APUG book to 50-150 books max. That would leave a huge burden on those involved and those who have submitted work to offset the cost. That in itself would drive costs further up reducing submissions, purchases. Having people responsible for their own scans could be very risky and costly to them further reducing submissions and be a logistical nightmare of sorts. I would say get a solid 500 willing to buy a book, then work out the logistics of how to proceed from there. I don't think it will be anywhere near 500 (especially in this economy), but would love to be proven wrong. I am happy to run a "Would you pre-purchase an APUG Book?" type of notice in all forum headers for a week or so to finally get some figures if you want..

  7. #287

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    Get Freestyle involved. Have them sponsor, carry, and push the book. And have their board of photographic professionals jury the show (anonymously). Accompany the book release with a gallery show at Freestyle. That keeps APUG folks out of the selection process, but ensures that it is in the hands of dedicated analog photo folk. And it helps out financially, and opens up the product to a much wider group of potential purchasers. If prolific posters are not included, that's just how the cookie crumbles. You take that risk when submitting work to a selection board. This is not about WHO gets in; it's about WHAT gets in. It is about putting together a bunch of fine work that will promote analog photography and APUG, not about inflating egos or granting rewards for contribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    Is it that they are prolific posters and are afraid their work would not be included?
    That is exactly it, Mr. Smith. It is fear of a bruised ego. Balls to that. If you ain't gettin' yer ego bruised on a daily basis, you ain't livin'!
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  8. #288

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    I think it is very revealing the Mr. Grant, who is foremost among those objecting to my making the selections refuses to answer the question of why he so objects.

    Michael A. Smith

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael A. Smith View Post
    I think it is very revealing the Mr. Grant, who is foremost among those objecting to my making the selections refuses to answer the question of why he so objects.

    Michael A. Smith
    Well, I agree with him, as do many others who are simply too polite to say so, or who have simply resigned from the thread.

    After a year inside the beltway, I can now scare the dutch with my directness, so I'll go ahead and say it on behalf of those who are unwilling: I really dislike the idea of you... or any single individual... reviewing images for this project and thus accomplishing nothing more than a compilation of personal opinions. Which of course would then be sold.

    P.S. If you do wish to review one of my images, I will charge $50 for 15 minutes.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

    [APUG Portfolio] [APUG Blog] [Website]

  10. #290

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    I think it's time to decouple this project from any individual. We are no longer talking about a book for the group we call APUG. We are now talking about who gets to do what and who object to whom. It's more of individual vs individual fight than anything else. We are no longer talking objectively. This project is causing more conflict than unity among the membership.

    I'd say let Sean run "who would buy the book" thread and poll if it's even feasible to run such a project. It may very well be, with the level of disconnect among membership, it's not even worth pursuing any further.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?



 

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