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  1. #311

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    In the end we're all artists along some continuum from beginner to professional, including everything in between (aspiring artists, casual or serious hobbyists etc). And getting a bunch of artists to come to any kind of swift and unanimous (or even consensus) agreement in a smooth way is not easy. But hopefully this can be done somehow.

    I think I've taken it a little too seriously thus far, even as somewhat of an outsider. Perhaps others have as well. Yes we want a high quality product, but this is not the be-all-end-all of any of our respective careers, hobbies etc. I'm not sure if I should submit any pictures, but I'll buy a nice APUG photography book whether I have any pictures in it or not.

  2. #312
    guitstik's Avatar
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    We need to come to some sort of compromise if we are to get a book to press. The biggest objection I am seeing to Lodima Press doing this printing is not the cost but a one man panel judging our work. Every book, magazine or news paper has a singular editor that makes the final decisions and that is as it should be or chaos takes over. I can understand the objections but the way I see it, a juried selection would be impractical. Who here is willing to send even one print to a panel of "judges"? If we used a jury of twelve, that would be twelve prints going out in all different directions and that would be cost prohibitive. I don't know about the rest of you but my monitor isn't the greatest at reproducing tones. My own prints don't look the same on my monitor so how wouldni be able to judge the works of others, hence the idea for this book. So why not let one man with a vast background of looking at prints from professionals do all of the hard work and take all of the grief that goes with it.

    The prices I have seen for a POD book get up over $100 unless we cut corners by going with a smaller book, lower quality paper and cut the number of pages and even then it is still close to that price. I have read where others have talked about starting with a POD and then later doing a fine art book. That seems backwards to me. How many people do you think would be interested in a second book if the first was not of the best quality?

    Sean is correct, we need numbers and I am still befuddled as to why we haven't spread the word better. If Sean did put a banner at the top of each section I think more people would get involved but what will turn people off is this insecent bickering, name calling and shedding of blood. I assume that we are all adults here and as such can we not get together and come up with a plan other than "I don't want him judging me" or "I won't work with these people". I think that Michael and Ian should get together over a beer and talk over their differences. We already have several things going for us, a printer/publisher with excellent credentials, a group of APUG'ers with really good ideas and a whole gallery of talented artists. Could we not get a selection committee together to mull over submissions and then pass those on to Michael for him to edit? If Sean would agree, we might even get him to give the final nod. Of course this would be contingent on getting the number of submissions and purchasers where we need them.

    Joel

    Edit: I have been informed that this is not a viable option I also get the feeling that I have been dismissed.
    Last edited by guitstik; 08-14-2011 at 12:28 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Thy heart -- thy heart! -- I wake and sigh,
    And sleep to dream till day
    Of the truth that gold can never buy
    Of the bawbles that it may.

    www.silverhalidephotography.com

  3. #313

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    Joel,

    Until we get beyond "my print won't...." mentality, no consensus will ever emerge. We evaluate and critique images all day long on APUG gallery. We can even do a preliminary selection on scanned image by panels, then final print can be sent to a single person for final judgement. But this person who will cast the final judgement will need to be selected by the membership.

    This is an enthusiasts' forum. Please never forget that. Each of us are proud of our own accomplishment. If this is going to be a APUG book, it will have to belong to everybody - one way or another. That doesn't necessary mean everyone's work needs to be included.

    Before any consensus was formed, Micheal came out and basically declared how it's going to be. People reacted. I'm not surprised at all, how it went down from there.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  4. #314
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    Joel,

    Until we get beyond "my print won't...." mentality, no consensus will ever emerge. We evaluate and critique images all day long on APUG gallery. We can even do a preliminary selection on scanned image by panels, then final print can be sent to a single person for final judgement. But this person who will cast the final judgement will need to be selected by the membership.

    This is an enthusiasts' forum. Please never forget that. Each of us are proud of our own accomplishment. If this is going to be a APUG book, it will have to belong to everybody - one way or another. That doesn't necessary mean everyone's work needs to be included.

    Before any consensus was formed, Micheal came out and basically declared how it's going to be. People reacted. I'm not surprised at all, how it went down from there.
    That's an excellent summation.

    Rachelle (mooseontheloose) carried out a survey and based on its results, comments in this thread etc, there's a plan of action in place that Joel is part of and which will be made public in a few days.

    I think MicaelR 1974 in his last post put's things into perspective. This is simply an APUG book some people take things to seriousaly, it just need to get done without petty sqabbles.

    Ian

  5. #315

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    my take is that if one person is going to curate a book of apug images
    there shouldn't even be submissions. he or she should just look at images in the gallery and then email the people whose images
    were liked/ accepted / made the cut ... and ask if they would be interested in having their work in a book.
    let people know this is going to be going on and then look at every image in the gallery ...

    then have a 80 page book ( or volumes of 80 page books ) since 80 pages seems to be the best value ...
    and go from there.

    make the announcement, browse the gallery email, publish and have an APUG page on blurb ...

    have the moderators or membership council or open vote here on apug
    decide who is going to be the curator and have a new book every few months .
    and maybe every few months or once a year we can have a celeb-curator who is a member / subscriber here on apug.

    joel since you started this thread, maybe you can be the first book czar



    threads like this go on for 30 pages, and nothing gets done besides name calling, and bad feelings ...
    im empty, good luck

  6. #316
    mooseontheloose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    my take is that if one person is going to curate a book of apug images
    there shouldn't even be submissions. he or she should just look at images in the gallery and then email the people whose images
    were liked/ accepted / made the cut ... and ask if they would be interested in having their work in a book.
    let people know this is going to be going on and then look at every image in the gallery ...
    ...
    That's not a bad idea, except I don't know who would want to wade through 541 pages of gallery postings!
    Rachelle

    My favorite thing is to go where I've never been. D. Arbus

  7. #317

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    if you change your images / page to 210 it trims page count down considerably

    too bad the random image pages don't have 210 images on them
    it would make browsing the gallery for this sort of thing really easy ...
    im empty, good luck

  8. #318
    TheFlyingCamera's Avatar
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    I've been doing some price shopping for services, and if we go with Blurb, we can get a soft-cover, 8.5 x 11 inch book with up to 120 pages for $35, hard-cover for with dust jacket for $44, hard-cover with imagewrap for $ 47, and ProLine Linen cover with dust jacket for $50. That's a far cry from $100, and well within the budget most people on the survey indicated they would spend. I've seen Blurb books before and they're quite nice. Yes, they're not as nice as what Lodima could do for us, but if we judge by the survey, there's no way we could get 500 people (or 1000) to pony up and buy the entire production run. If we were to go with Michael's suggestion that those buying the book cover the difference, if we had a production run of 1000 books, and 200 people actually bought, then the excess production run would raise the cost per person by a factor of 4- so a $20 book would become an $80 book. If we went with a POD book, the cost would be fixed, per book, never go up, there would be no excess inventory to manage, and to cap it off, there would be no delay between design and production while we wait for checks to come in. Put simply, the logistics of producing the book absolutely dictate that we go with POD. I know I don't have a spare $10K sitting around to produce this book to insure it gets printed in a timely fashion, and I don't have a garage I could store 1000 books in, nor do I have the time and energy to sit down and process, pack and ship orders in a timely fashion. Neither do any of the other folks who have been actively working on this, and I doubt most of the nay-sayers here do either. Now, if someone here has the spare cash and the spare time to manage the offset press run and its distribution, I will be the very first one to cede that task to them and pony up my $20 for my copy of the book. Please, step forward and identify yourself.

    As to blood being spilt in this thread, I don't see it. I do see people offering up nice ideas without regard for practical considerations and when those practical considerations get pointed out, they get butt-hurt because their idea wasn't immediately adopted. If you want to participate, the identities of those organizing this effort are known at this point - feel free to PM us and join in. For the record, we are:

    Joel - Guitstik
    Rachelle - Mooseontheloose
    Ian Grant - Ian Grant
    Scott - TheFlyingCamera

    This process is somewhat slow by virtue of the fact that we're in four discontiguous time zones (Japan, Central US, Eastern US, Continental Europe) and so conversations don't happen in real time. We are finalizing a lot of details for the project and will be putting out a new announcement in a new thread in the next few days. It should all be much clearer then, and we hope folks will be able to get on board at that time. If people are too butt-hurt to see past the project not looking exactly like they wanted it to, then we'll kill the thing here and let someone else produce their own idea of what this should look like. If not, we'll get a book out the door within the next six months.
    Last edited by TheFlyingCamera; 08-14-2011 at 03:19 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #319
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post
    I've been doing some price shopping for services, and if we go with Blurb, we can get a soft-cover, 8.5 x 11 inch book with up to 120 pages for $35, hard-cover for with dust jacket for $44, hard-cover with imagewrap for $ 47, and ProLine Linen cover with dust jacket for $50. That's a far cry from $100, and well within the budget most people on the survey indicated they would spend. I've seen Blurb books before and they're quite nice. Yes, they're not as nice as what Lodima could do for us, but if we judge by the survey, there's no way we could get 500 people (or 1000) to pony up and buy the entire production run. If we were to go with Michael's suggestion that those buying the book cover the difference, if we had a production run of 1000 books, and 200 people actually bought, then the excess production run would raise the cost per person by a factor of 4- so a $20 book would become an $80 book. If we went with a POD book, the cost would be fixed, per book, never go up, there would be no excess inventory to manage, and to cap it off, there would be no delay between design and production while we wait for checks to come in. Put simply, the logistics of producing the book absolutely dictate that we go with POD.
    An unlimited edition...I like it!
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #320
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingCamera View Post

    If you want to participate, the identities of those organizing this effort are known at this point - feel free to PM us and join in. For the record, we are:

    Joel - Guitstik
    Rachelle - Mooseontheloose
    Ian Grant - Ian Grant
    Scott - TheFlyingCamera

    This process is somewhat slow by virtue of the fact that we're in four discontiguous time zones (Japan, Central US, Eastern US, Continental Europe) and so conversations don't happen in real time. We are finalizing a lot of details for the project and will be putting out a new announcement in a new thread in the next few days. It should all be much clearer then, and we hope folks will be able to get on board at that time.
    Thanks to all four of you for stepping forward and putting time and effort into this.

    I especially appreciate the fact that there are people from a lot of different locations working on it.

    And I'm sure having a transplanted Canadian on the team helps too .
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2



 

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