Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,692   Posts: 1,548,950   Online: 809
      
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19
  1. #1
    keyofnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    86

    Zorki/MIR shutter misuse?

    Yesterday I received a MIR, the Zorki 4 with fewer shutter speeds, from Fedka.com. It seems pretty awesome.

    Today, I decided to take it to local camera shop to get its shutter speeds checked out. I made it very clear to them that they shouldn't change shutter speeds without cocking the shutter first. One guy ran it through their machine and turned up with "Eh... these are so-so speed timings, but they're usable." He was very careful to follow my instructions. He, however, wanted a second opinion…so he brought in another guy.

    The second guy ran it through the machine himself and turned up with a different attitude, "So this shutter is 3/4ths of a stop off and erratic!" He showed me the back and continued to explain, "See how the shutter slides back... one of the times I cocked the shutter, the two curtains were 1/8th of an inch apart!" I hadn't noticed any of that the 100 times I cocked the shutter the night before. As he continued to show me problem, I noticed: he changed the shutter speed before he cocked the shutter. I said, "But you just changed the shutter before you cocked the shutter!"

    He told me to send it back, save some money, and buy a Leica III. What the hell? Of course, he had a Leica III he was willing to sell me…engraved with someone's else's name in it. I took my camera back, checked the shutter 20 times to check if he broke it (didn't see any shutter separation), said good day, and screamed outside. I was mad enough to fight so I jut picked the path of least resistance and got out of there. :/ I like the owner of that shop and I like the first guy, but this second guy was not careful at all.

    Here are my questions:

    • Is my camera borked—and how can I tell?
    • Are erratic shutter speeds typical of shutter misuse? (That's what I've read, and I've also read they can go back to normal after 2-3 shots, but you guys would know better.)
    • Also: I'd love to hear your similar experiences. How many of you have had people nearly screw up your FSU Rangefinder or Barnack Leica?

  2. #2
    brucemuir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Metro DC area, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,264
    Images
    4
    I NEVER have had my Barnack "borked" becuase I would never hand it to anyone that I dont trust to be a manual camera freak like most of us here are. (hows that for grammar )
    It's just inviting trouble, even from a so called repair guy at a shop THESE days which probably means dslr training at most.

    Luckily for you, if you feel the camera speeds were out when you received it from Yuri, he will take care of you.
    You just need to be honest and talk to him about it.

    I dont have a fsu screwmount but I do have a Kiev/Contax and I learned the hard way.
    I will continue to gamble with the lenses but the bodies are too much of a crap shoot for my tastes and I LIKE buying old camera stuff. It just needs to have been built right originally. An iffy proposition with FSU. I eventually went with a IIIf R/D.

    Now I think the shutter speed dial sequence has the potential of borking you if done incorrectly, but... I think I've read conflicting reports if it means automatic borking or it can accumulate to an ultimate bork eventually.

    I would shoot a roll at least and see how it exposes and make a decision from there.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,283
    Images
    21
    I've been inside a Mir shutter, and as far as I was able to tell, it seemed like any borking from setting the shutter speeds in the wrong order could be deborked by realigning the shutter speeds so they read correctly. I wouldn't bet the life of your camera on that or anything, but if the speeds are now reading correctly and the shutter isn't showing any obvious misbehavior, I think you can consider it borkless unless proven otherwise.

    Based on your description, I'm having trouble finding appropriately strong language to use about that second guy. Seriously, he had a customer's equipment in hand and was ignoring that customer's "do it this way or it will break" instructions? That's just mind-bogglingly unprofessional, and plain stupid as well---what if it had been some high-ticket rarity and he broke it for you? Ugh.

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  4. #4
    keyofnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by brucemuir View Post
    I NEVER have had my Barnack "borked" becuase I would never hand it to anyone that I dont trust to be a manual camera freak like most of us here are. (hows that for grammar )
    It's just inviting trouble, even from a so called repair guy at a shop THESE days which probably means dslr training at most.

    Luckily for you, if you feel the camera speeds were out when you received it from Yuri, he will take care of you.
    You just need to be honest and talk to him about it.
    I wouldn't dismiss these guys so quickly, they mostly do work on older cameras: old SLRs, TLRs, etc. I bought a Pentax MX on consignment with them; it looked like crap before they overhauled it, and now it's pretty reliable.

    If worse comes to worse, I'll talk to Yuri. He said if it isn't right, he'd send me a Zorki 4 (as he's out of Mirs).

    Quote Originally Posted by brucemuir View Post
    Now I think the shutter speed dial sequence has the potential of borking you if done incorrectly, but... I think I've read conflicting reports if it means automatic borking or it can accumulate to an ultimate bork eventually.
    Ultimate bork!
    Maybe someone else can give us some more info on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by brucemuir View Post
    I would shoot a roll at least and see how it exposes and make a decision from there.
    Cool. (:
    Last edited by keyofnight; 02-09-2013 at 11:00 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #5
    keyofnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    I've been inside a Mir shutter, and as far as I was able to tell, it seemed like any borking from setting the shutter speeds in the wrong order could be deborked by realigning the shutter speeds so they read correctly. I wouldn't bet the life of your camera on that or anything, but if the speeds are now reading correctly and the shutter isn't showing any obvious misbehavior, I think you can consider it borkless unless proven otherwise.
    Whew. That's good to hear.
    I bought the MIR because I heard the models with slow shutter speeds aren't as reliable as the others. I guess my decision was a good one, I got lucky, or both. Whew.

    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    Based on your description, I'm having trouble finding appropriately strong language to use about that second guy. Seriously, he had a customer's equipment in hand and was ignoring that customer's "do it this way or it will break" instructions? That's just mind-bogglingly unprofessional, and plain stupid as well---what if it had been some high-ticket rarity and he broke it for you? Ugh.
    Seriously! What the hell was he thinking? I'm still pissed. What sucks is I still don't know how accurate the shutter is. Ug.

    What's worse: I like the other guys at the shop, and I (still) want to get my GF's OM-1n fixed there. I've seen them polish some turds, man.

    I'm probably going to send an email, call them, go visit and explain my problem to the owner. There's no other place to get things CLAed in this town.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    North Yorkshire, England
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    721
    Was it when he changed the shutter speeds before cocking the shutter, he actually put it on the wrong speed? If I recall correctly the shutter speed dial rotates when the shutter is fired and finishes up at a different place on the dial, so when you wind on the film it brings the dial into the correct position to change the shutter speed against the engraved marks?

    It is unlikely that any damage has been caused but this would give the incorrect reading he (the 'repairer') found when he tested the shutter. I have had a number of cameras made in Russia or the Ukraine and couple of early Leica's where I have forgetfully changed the shutter speed before winding on. There has never been a problem afterwards so I think you may have been worrying unnecessarily.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    North Yorkshire, England
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    721
    Was it when he changed the shutter speeds before cocking the shutter, he actually put it on the wrong speed? If I recall correctly the shutter speed dial rotates when the shutter is fired and finishes up at a different place on the dial, so when you wind on the film it brings the dial into the correct position to change the shutter speed against the engraved marks?

    It is unlikely that any damage has been caused but this would give the incorrect reading he (the 'repairer') found when he tested the shutter. I have had a number of cameras made in Russia or the Ukraine and couple of early Leica's where I have forgetfully changed the shutter speed before winding on. There has never been a problem afterwards so I think you may have been worrying unnecessarily.

    It may be possible that the actual dial is out of sync too. On the ones I had there is or was a tiny screw that held the shutter speed dial in the right place and this had slackened off and slipped. It was just a matter of unscrewing it a little more and re-positioning the dial to the right place and firmly tightening the screw

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    12
    Hi there.
    Firstly it is unlikely that any damage has been done unless the guy forced the knob past the stop - the reason KMZ state not to change the speeds with the shutter unwound is most critical to the Zorki 4K, which has the additional slow speeds escapement, and damage almost certainly will be done if speeds are changed before winding the Zorki 4/4K shutter.

    Best way to check the shutter initially is:
    1) WIND THE SHUTTER - then set to 'B' with the back removed. Fire the shutter, hold down the release button. The opening curtain should snap smartly open. Now release the button and the closing curtain should close quickly but not quite so snappily as the opening one. The secret of the Barnack shutter is that the closing curtain moves slightly more slowly so as to avoid it catching up with the opening one and causing fade. If the shutter is snappy at the 'B' setting then other speeds should be reasonable. If sluggish then a lube/adjust is needed.
    2) Now set to the 1/500 speed, back off and lens off, and look through the lens throat. Aim the camera at a grey sky or well lit light coloured wall and fire a few times. You should see an evenly lit oblong. If you do then things are looking good.
    3) For an approximate way of testing shutter speed accuracy, check Rick Oleson's page http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-135.html +/- 20% of the set speed is allowable, that is only 1/5th stop.

    Hope this helps,

    Steve

  9. #9
    Aristotle80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Baton Rouge and New Orleans
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    58
    Images
    3
    I just got a LTM Fed Industar lens from Fedka. It fits well and looks great on my Voightlander Bessa-L, which I got for $110 on the bay like new. I salute your choice to use the Russian body, but if you ever consider an inexpensive backup body with modern meter, it's pretty slick. (I already had an accessory viewfinder with multiple focal lengths, but these are all over the place used.) The Voightlander is so much cheaper than a Leica original in similarly minty condition.
    I confess I'm a gear nut within my price range. ;)
    Nikon FM2n, FG, FG20, N2000, Nikkormat, Olympus Stylus Epic
    Minox 35EL, Voigtlander Bessa-L
    Yashica-D TLR 6x6, Seagull TLR 6x6
    Agfa Isolette 6x6, Welmy 6x6
    Kodak Tourist 6x9 Anaston lens
    http://www.wendelstout.com/

  10. #10
    keyofnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by BMbikerider View Post
    Was it when he changed the shutter speeds before cocking the shutter, he actually put it on the wrong speed? If I recall correctly the shutter speed dial rotates when the shutter is fired and finishes up at a different place on the dial, so when you wind on the film it brings the dial into the correct position to change the shutter speed against the engraved marks?
    Right. That's what happens—if you cock it, set it to 1/60, fire it... it spins and ends up misaligned until you cock it again. The guy at the camera shop sometimes changed the speeds before cocking the shutter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMbikerider View Post
    It is unlikely that any damage has been caused but this would give the incorrect reading he (the 'repairer') found when he tested the shutter. I have had a number of cameras made in Russia or the Ukraine and couple of early Leica's where I have forgetfully changed the shutter speed before winding on. There has never been a problem afterwards so I think you may have been worrying unnecessarily.

    It may be possible that the actual dial is out of sync too. On the ones I had there is or was a tiny screw that held the shutter speed dial in the right place and this had slackened off and slipped. It was just a matter of unscrewing it a little more and re-positioning the dial to the right place and firmly tightening the screw
    Right, that would explain why he thinks the shutter speeds are off by almost a whole stop. He changed the shutter, and the mechanical shutter timings are at least ±15%, right? I mean…I don't know if it's just an explanation at this point I watched him do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiev88user View Post
    Hi there.
    Firstly it is unlikely that any damage has been done unless the guy forced the knob past the stop - the reason KMZ state not to change the speeds with the shutter unwound is most critical to the Zorki 4K, which has the additional slow speeds escapement, and damage almost certainly will be done if speeds are changed before winding the Zorki 4/4K shutter.

    Best way to check the shutter initially is:
    1) WIND THE SHUTTER - then set to 'B' with the back removed. Fire the shutter, hold down the release button. The opening curtain should snap smartly open. Now release the button and the closing curtain should close quickly but not quite so snappily as the opening one. The secret of the Barnack shutter is that the closing curtain moves slightly more slowly so as to avoid it catching up with the opening one and causing fade. If the shutter is snappy at the 'B' setting then other speeds should be reasonable. If sluggish then a lube/adjust is needed.
    2) Now set to the 1/500 speed, back off and lens off, and look through the lens throat. Aim the camera at a grey sky or well lit light coloured wall and fire a few times. You should see an evenly lit oblong. If you do then things are looking good.
    3) For an approximate way of testing shutter speed accuracy, check Rick Oleson's page http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-135.html +/- 20% of the set speed is allowable, that is only 1/5th stop.
    I'm glad I chose the Mir, then. Yuri offered me a Zorki 4 in the case this Mir wasn't any good, but I refused it—mostly because I read the Mir is somehow more reliable than it's bigger sibling. I guess now I know why. (;

    Okay I tried (1)… and I see exactly what you're saying. On bulb, the first curtain snaps open, and when I release the shutter, the second curtain snaps shut a little slower than the first. Cool!

    I'll check (2) in the morning, and I'll maybe run Rick Oleson's tests (3) tomorrow too. (;

    I also just ran a roll of film through the thing, and there were no appreciable problems beside setting my meter wrong, forgetting to change exposure settings, bumping the aperture ring, etc. Everything looks well-exposed. (;



    Thanks guys. (:

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin