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  1. #21
    titrisol's Avatar
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    The new ZeissIkon RF is a joint venture with Cosina...
    so it is basically a rebadged Cosina

    Quote Originally Posted by Biogon Bill
    Lee, when did Cosina issue one of their cameras with the Zeiss name on it?

    Bill
    Mama took my APX away.....

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    The new ZeissIkon RF is a joint venture with Cosina...
    so it is basically a rebadged Cosina
    Yes, and a very nice camera, BTW!
    Tom Hoskinson
    ______________________________

    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee L
    The current Zeiss Ikon M-mount rangefinder is a revision of the C/V Bessa R2A, built to meet and pass Zeiss specs and QC. The majority of the lenses for it are made by Cosina to Zeiss designs and specs. And Cosina is collaborating with Zeiss on the new Zeiss SLR lenses. Cosina has also made their own line of SLR lenses for older SLR manual focus mounts for several years now.

    Lee
    Lee, where did you get the information that the Zeiss Ikon is a revision of the Bessa R2A?

    Bill

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    The new ZeissIkon RF is a joint venture with Cosina...
    so it is basically a rebadged Cosina
    I fail to follow the logic. How do you get from "joint venture" to "rebadged Cosina"?

    Bill

  5. #25
    Lee L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biogon Bill
    Lee, where did you get the information that the Zeiss Ikon is a revision of the Bessa R2A?

    Bill
    See my last post, referring you to page 3 of the Keppler article.

    Lee
    Last edited by Lee L; 05-16-2006 at 10:48 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #26

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    The design of the ZI RF camera is done by Zeiss Ikon, and the engineering part by Cosina. Indeed the production of those new Bessa cameras were kind of a stepping stone for Cosina as a camera manufaturer to get to this level according to what I read before, other than Pop Photo.

    Although Bessa R2 series and Rollei RF 35mm share the same design and the concept of the Epson digital RF body, ZI RF is somewhat separable from this category and more refined and distinctive.

    My feeling (pure feeling) is that ZI RF is modeled after Leica M2 and M4 as well as old Zeiss RF cameras.

    My by-the-end-of-the-year shopping list includes the ZI RF and Leica M4P. I've been betting, shopping around between these two models, and hopefully to pick up one when I get a good deal.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee L
    See my last post, referring you to page 3 of the Keppler article.

    Lee
    Lee, with Keppler as your source, I can see why you think that the ZI is a revision of the R2A. Unfortunately, the Keppler article is full of inaccuracies. I guess that at his age, he should be commended on the fact that he can still produce a 3-page article.

    In that same article, Keppler claims that the list of Cosina/Voigtlander rangefinder lenses include the following: 21/4, 35/4, & 50/1.7. The CV stable of RF M-mount lenses doesn't include any lenses with these specs.

    Similar errors can be found in his comments about the Zeiss Ikon. He states that "the base of the rangefinder is improved to 70 mm." In point of fact, the base line of the ZI measures 75 mm.

    Keppler's statement that "the internal camera specifications are almost identical to the CV R2A" is equally mistaken. He himself points out that the "finder is vastly improved," so we know that this spec is different - which is a major difference on a rangefinder camera. In a general sense, the two are similar because they both have AE, manual focus, & electronic shutters. However, the difference is in the details.

    The most significant difference between the finders of the two cameras isn't even mentioned by Keppler. The ZI finder includes 28 mm frame lines, making it the longest effective base length of any RF camera ever with 28 mm frame lines built into a single viewfinder. The widest frame lines on the R2A are 35 mm.

    The electromagnetic controls of the two shutter systems are different. The more sophisticated controls of the ZI allow for permanet AE lock while AE lock on the R2A is strictly manual.

    But the biggest difference in the shutter systems of the ZI & the R2A is the immediacy of response. Shutter delay for the ZI is 14 ms (milli-seconds) in manual & 20 ms in AE. This compares with 12 ms for the M6 & 25 ms for the M7. No other camera in the world can match this immediacy of response. When Pop Photo tested the Bessa R, they measured the shutter delay at 100 ms. The Konica Hexar RF was measured at 120 ms. Rangefinder photographers pride themselves on being able to capture the decisive moment in a way that SLR photgraphers cannot. The ZI provides this capability; the Bessa cameras, true to their SLR roots, do not.

    The metering system of the ZI was changed from that of the R2A to make it more sensitive. You can see that simply by looking through the lens mount at the secondary shutter blades where the metering pattern is different on the ZI.

    Even in the small details, the internal specs of the R2A & the Zi are different. The ZI has been built with a light-tight integrity that does not require foam in the back channels. Like almost every other camera you can find, the R2A has foam strips. When the foam goes, the camera leaks light.

    Keppler states in his article that "Cosina did not hew to the same optical designs as the original Voigtlander lenses." This is a true statement. It is why criticism is justly deserved fro slapping the Voigtlander label on a series of lenses & cameras that have emerged from modern Cosina designs & which have nothing to do with the name they bear.

    However, the Zeiss Ikon is a completely new camera design & is in no way a re-issue of a Cosina camera. The same is true for the lenses. These are Zeiss lenses and have nothing to do with any lenses that were ever developed by Cosina.

    When he visited the Cosina factory in March. 2005, Stephen Gandy of Cameraquest said that the Zeiss Ikon shares no parts in common with any
    Bessa camera. While this may have been a stretch since they both use standard Copal parts in their sshutters, for example, his basic point is that these are two completely different cameras.

    Bill

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by firecracker
    My feeling (pure feeling) is that ZI RF is modeled after Leica M2 and M4 as well as old Zeiss RF cameras.

    My by-the-end-of-the-year shopping list includes the ZI RF and Leica M4P. I've been betting, shopping around between these two models, and hopefully to pick up one when I get a good deal.
    Firecracker, as a future Zeiss Ikon owner, you may be pleased to know that the Zeiss Ikon is not modeled after the M2 & M4, nor for that matter the old Zeiss RF cameras. It is a new design. If it were modeled after the M2/M4 lineage, it would essentially be an M7, which it is not. The M6 & M7 are derived directly from the M2.

    What the ZI does share with the M2 & M4 is an uncluttered viewfinder, which has been lost with later Leica M cameras.

    The Konica Hexar RF was clearly derived directly from the Leica M series. Unfortunately, it continued the same cluttered viewfinder from the M6 - only worse. Even Leica didn't includer 135 mm frame lines in a viewfinder with a magnification of only 0.6x.

    The legacy of the M series cameras in the Hexar RF is most evident in its rangefinder design. Erwin Puts has demonstrated that this is a direct copy of the rangefinder in the M6, which is unchanged from the M2. It is identical.

    However, the rangefinder design used in the Zeiss Ikon is completeely different than the one used by Leica or Konica. Puts has said that it is most similar to the design used on the M3. Both of these designs are more accurate than the later Leica & Konica design, and they eliminate flare & rangefinder parallax.

    Bill

  9. #29
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    Cosina has done a great service

    Cosina has done a great service by all the really great products they have brought to market. Good to excellent quality and a real wake up call to Leica in my humble opinion.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kivis
    Cosina has done a great service by all the really great products they have brought to market. Good to excellent quality and a real wake up call to Leica in my humble opinion.
    I really hope so! I just dropped a huge chunk of change (for me!) on an R3A and 50mm 1.5 Nokton. My sincere hope is that it is every bit as good as Roger Hicks has stated it is!

    Kent
    Max Power, he's the man who's name you'd love to touch! But you mustn't touch! His name sounds good in your ear, but when you say it, you mustn't fear! 'Cause his name can be said by anyone!

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