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  1. #91
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Let me just approach this in a slightly different way.

    Those of you who say MLU doesn't matter, are you saying that it's a worthless gimmick perpetrated upon us by the cameramakers? So, they all got together and said, let's sock it to those poor bastards and add on a feature that they really don't need...

    And if you support this hypothesis, I ask: how much extra profit do you suppose it enabled them to reap from these bodies with the worthless MLU?

    Or did they do it not for profit but simply for sh*ts and grins? I'd find that hard to believe; the modern [film] camera, to me, is one of the most purposefully designed tools I can imagine. It really wasn't until the digital generation that we started to see all kinds of nonsense shoved in the box just to make people feel like they were getting more for their money.

    This all reminds me of the lovely quote by Marx. No, not that Marx, the Marx most people still respect, Groucho Marx:

    Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know.
    Last edited by keithwms; 02-06-2010 at 10:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post

    Those of you who say MLU doesn't matter, are you saying that it's a worthless gimmick perpetrated upon us by the cameramakers?

    [/I]
    MLU was necessary for non retro focus wide angle lenses, they wanted to sell system cameras, to bury the rangefinders like Contax IIa and Leica M2, which could accept non retrofocus lenses.

    It was also useful for low vibration shots of star fields etc.

    MLU is not so fashionable today...

    Noel

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    They don't show a thing except in regards to a specific camera/focal length/exposure time/focus. That's the real point. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.
    Of course, which is what I said earlier. Just refuting the blanket assertion that it is a "myth" or it never matters, which is what some are saying.
    -brian hayden
    http://fed-2.org

  4. #94
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    MLU is not so fashionable today...
    Well neither am I, but my employer still seems to find me important enough to use me regularly.

    Seriously though, my employer likes my work because I use and don't short cut the best processes. This means they have less to worry about; the machines will start on the first try, run reliably, and everybody gets home safe.

    MLU is one part of a regimen of best practices for getting sharp pictures and it costs next to nothing in money or time to use it.

    To me it seems truly silly to put all the effort needed to carrying, setting up, and throwing a camera on a tripod just to ignore using the MLU which takes all of 5 extra seconds to use.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  5. #95

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    Yes but you can get nearly the same effect (now days with inverted telephotos) with a SLR on self timer which fires the mirror early, you still get a delay, but the vibration will be less.

    Some of the earlier SLR you lose a frame resetting the mirror?

    As I read it the OP was about street shooting not star fields and the like. Maybe I'm wrong again.

    When I take night shots I may fire the shutter with a black felt table tennis bat obscuring the field of view as even a leicia fabric shutter has an impulse on blind movement,and my tripods are not that heavy to necessarily absorb.

    Noel

  6. #96
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    Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I have always thought that in an SLR in short exposure say 30th to 1000th sec. by the time the mirror reaches the top of its travel and hits the foam bumper the picture has already been taken.
    Ben

  7. #97
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjiboy View Post
    Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I have always thought that in an SLR in short exposure say 30th to 1000th sec. by the time the mirror reaches the top of its travel and hits the foam bumper the picture has already been taken.
    First, the mirror has to be completely out of the way or it will be in the picture so I doubt that the shutter fires until it's up all the way. This is part of why a rangefinder can fire faster, there is no mirror to wait for.

    Second, there are two impulses "felt" by the camera. First the acceleration of the mirror upward from it's resting position and then the mirror being stopped. Even if your thought was true, the initial acceleration would be affecting the camera before the shutter fired.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  8. #98

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    MLU

    "Edge of Darkness", Barry Thornton. Chapter 5, pg 65. Hand held , Light tripod, Heavy tripod and Heavy tripod with mirror up, from 1 sec to 1/125th. Pretty definitive. But so what, first get the picture.... then whine about the blur, IF it's there... Mirrors are obviously the least important cause of loss of sharpness.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.

  9. #99
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    hello

    i wonder why this thread has gone so long and for so long, the answer is simple: test the cameras!

    put some film in a camera, any fine grain should do

    get a small led light and put it really far

    wait for the night

    and: shoot at different speeds, with and without mlu at a constant f stop

    you can also test your hand steadyness and your tripod steadyness

    take notes

    develop normally

    enlarge the white dots

    the things more close to a dot are the best for you


    i´ve seen tripods worse than my hands...



    i really think that mirrorless cameras are great: small, usually quiet, and with the hability to hold short focals without the retrofocus design, i think that is a great advantage, just compare a wide angle like the biogon or similar design (there are a few) and a retrofocal counterpart distagon curtagon or flektogon or any slr wideangle, you should note differences in geometrical aberrations, resistance to flare, and resolution in the corners.

    but as with everything: you should get along with your camera... it´s a tool but if it doesn´t work with you it´s a problem...

    i get along with most of my cameras but some work better for me, spotmatic, nikon f2, minox, even hasselblad 501, others are a bit strange and i use them more often, or more in a need basis like fuji rangefinder or the bronica s2


    well good luck taking pictures, and if the camera you use does not work with you try a different one, mirrors apart, she (the camera) should be your perfect picture taking bitch :-)
    vive la resistance!

  10. #100
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    Yes but you can get nearly the same effect
    The real questions we need to ask is "how important is having this photo sharp?" and "what are my odds of getting a sharp photo in this situation?"

    If the odds are against you and sharp is truly important, you need to decide if "nearly the same" is good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    Some of the earlier SLR you lose a frame resetting the mirror?
    Just the cost of doing business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    As I read it the OP was about street shooting not star fields and the like. Maybe I'm wrong again.

    When I take night shots I may fire the shutter with a black felt table tennis bat obscuring the field of view as even a leicia fabric shutter has an impulse on blind movement,and my tripods are not that heavy to necessarily absorb.

    Noel
    Good idea with the paddle.

    Yes the OP asked about street shooting but the thread veered some.

    MLU would be problematic in fast hand-held work but the same questions I asked above apply. Controlling the mirrors effect or eliminating it altogether are important considerations.

    When I have to have sharp photos I don't slow the shutter under about 4x focal length until I pull out a mono-pod or tripod or strobe.

    Actually my mono-pod is under my small cameras even in broad daylight for anything important.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

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