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  1. #31
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q.G. View Post
    I don't think so.
    First, because both tests include the full cycle, not just the opening part.
    That's precisely the problem. Only the opening part is relevant to the exposure. Vibration after the shutter closes and the mirror returns (on cameras that have an instant return mirror) is irrelevant, and watching a laser point dance on the wall or seeing the penny fall is only interesting if you can isolate the beginning of the exposure from the end.

    I'd still rather look at a resolution test, because that's really what you want to know--do shutter and mirror-induced vibration reduce resolution, and how much, and at what shutter speeds?
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  2. #32
    cdowell's Avatar
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    I don't know about mirrors, but would there be any vibration caused as I yell "SAY CHEESE!!!" just as I'm releasing the shutter?
    "To a photographer the world consists of an infinite number of vantage points -- places to stand -- of which very few are altogether satisfactory." (John Szarkowski, Atget)

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  3. #33
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    I prefer working from rangefinder negatives, over the years , it just seemed to me the prints are sharper than those from an SLR camera.

    The Pentax 6x7 was the fashion photographers go to camera, I believe because the mirror slap softened the look of skin.

    I own a fuji 6x9, my wife received a Pentax 67, I like both cameras but use mirror lockup with the Pentax on tripod.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell View Post
    The reason a Rangefinder is good in the street is that the photographer learns to SEE what it will see.
    ...and one can also see what the lens does NOT see! One of the great things about my Leica is that I can see what is about to enter the camera's field of view before it happens. With an SLR, you only see what the lens sees, and miss what is just outside its field of view. With a RF, you can see something about to happen and recompose to catch it.
    Eddy McDonald
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    Eschew defenestration!

  5. #35
    SFC
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    Using a laser pointer does tell you one thing: is the camera moving, or not? Whether or not it affects the image depends on something else: How long does the vibration continue?. This will depend on the ability of the tripod/head to dampen.

  6. #36
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    It's not enough to know if the camera is moving or even how long the vibrations continue, unless you can isolate the vibrations that happen at the beginning of the exposure from the vibrations that happen after the shutter closes and the mirror returns. You could approximate this by triggering the shutter on "B," but given the way a focal plane shutter works, with the second curtain beginning to close before the first curtain ends its travel at any speed faster than the X-sync speed, that test wouldn't necessarily give you everything you need to know.

    Another approach might be to look at a sound wave to see which part of the shutter and mirror motion produce the most sound, sound being vibration, but even this information isn't that useful. I tried this with my notoriously loud Bronica S2a and determined that most of the sound was happening at the end of the exposure, rather than at the beginning where it could reduce image quality, but it's hard to say what that means, since it also depends on the structure of the camera and where the vibrations are coming from and the length of the exposure and external factors like the tripod and head.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  7. #37

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    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Also, not to muddy the issue, but I have always believed that leaf shutters cause less vibration than focal plane shutters, because the motion of a leaf shutter is radial, where the motion of a focal plane shutter is one-directional. The inertia of a leaf shutter should cancel out, reducing negative impact on images. Perhaps leaf shutter SLR are better than focal plane shutter rangefinders?

    Also, I'm sure the shutter vibration of my Kiev 4a is more than that of my Leica M3!
    Last edited by GeorgeDexter; 01-27-2010 at 11:19 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeDexter View Post
    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Also, not to muddy the issue, but I have always believed that leaf shutters cause less vibration than focal plane shutters, because the motion of a leaf shutter is radial, where the motion of a focal plane shutter is one-directional. The inertia of a leaf shutter should cancel out, reducing negative impact on images. Perhaps leaf shutter SLR are better than focal plane shutter rangefinders?
    Yep. You don't need to call it a belief, it's a fact. Like the mirror vibration issue, this is another one with ample image test data out there in addition to the physics. And of course like the mirror issue, it depends on other factors of the particular camera build as well.
    -brian hayden
    http://fed-2.org

  9. #39

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    Well, if I go the SLR route again, I will definitely be getting a model with MLU at this point!
    Interesting thought about leaf shutters vs focal plane; I hasn't thought of that angle on it before.
    Jed

  10. #40
    Rol_Lei Nut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeDexter View Post
    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Which Nikon camera? Again, the F & F2 had notoriously undampened shutters & mirrors. Also My FM & FE2 have more "kick" than average.

    Leaf shutters definitely (usually) cause less movement.

    Like SLRs, also rangefinder cameras undoubtedly have more or less dampened shutters.

    There are some SLRs which come close to rangefinders as far as vibrations are concerned. Needs to be looked at on a model by model basis (and condition - the need for a CLA, could also play a role).
    M6, SL, SL2, R5, P6x7, SL3003, SL35-E, F, F2, FM, FE-2, Varex IIa

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