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  1. #41

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    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Also, not to muddy the issue, but I have always believed that leaf shutters cause less vibration than focal plane shutters, because the motion of a leaf shutter is radial, where the motion of a focal plane shutter is one-directional. The inertia of a leaf shutter should cancel out, reducing negative impact on images. Perhaps leaf shutter SLR are better than focal plane shutter rangefinders?

    Also, I'm sure the shutter vibration of my Kiev 4a is more than that of my Leica M3!
    Last edited by GeorgeDexter; 01-27-2010 at 11:19 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeDexter View Post
    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Also, not to muddy the issue, but I have always believed that leaf shutters cause less vibration than focal plane shutters, because the motion of a leaf shutter is radial, where the motion of a focal plane shutter is one-directional. The inertia of a leaf shutter should cancel out, reducing negative impact on images. Perhaps leaf shutter SLR are better than focal plane shutter rangefinders?
    Yep. You don't need to call it a belief, it's a fact. Like the mirror vibration issue, this is another one with ample image test data out there in addition to the physics. And of course like the mirror issue, it depends on other factors of the particular camera build as well.
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  3. #43

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    Well, if I go the SLR route again, I will definitely be getting a model with MLU at this point!
    Interesting thought about leaf shutters vs focal plane; I hasn't thought of that angle on it before.
    Jed

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeDexter View Post
    I have tested this, with a Manfrotto carbon-fiber tripod, Manfrotto geared head, Nikon slr. I shoot 2+ second exposures with a cable release and a 200mm micro lens. I definitely see mirror slap resulting in less sharpe images than when I use mirror lock-up. Is there less vibration in rangefinders? I don't know.
    Which Nikon camera? Again, the F & F2 had notoriously undampened shutters & mirrors. Also My FM & FE2 have more "kick" than average.

    Leaf shutters definitely (usually) cause less movement.

    Like SLRs, also rangefinder cameras undoubtedly have more or less dampened shutters.

    There are some SLRs which come close to rangefinders as far as vibrations are concerned. Needs to be looked at on a model by model basis (and condition - the need for a CLA, could also play a role).
    M6, SL, SL2, R5, P6x7, SL3003, SL35-E, F, F2, FM, FE-2, Varex IIa

  5. #45
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    When I went from the F5 to the F100 I thought MLU would be an issue... it has not been. The mirror damping on the F100 is very good.

    Jed, when I spoke of longish handheld exposures in a previous post, that was with a mamiya 6, which has leaf shutter lenses.... and no mirror Leaf shutters rock for quiet, smooth operation. Great synch times too if that's your thing.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah Smith View Post
    Well, if I go the SLR route again, I will definitely be getting a model with MLU at this point!
    Interesting thought about leaf shutters vs focal plane; I hasn't thought of that angle on it before.
    Jed
    The XD11 had a seriously dampened mirror system, one of the best.
    Canon f1N & Leica SLR's also.
    The absolute necessity of having MLU becomes more important with Macro/micro photography, not general usage.
    Though I'm not a fan of AF cameras, the Contax G2 is about as good as it gets.
    Comfortable size & weight and excellent lenses. Won't break the bank to get a body & a lens or two.
    It fails if you like to use a long lens or do macro work. So do Leica M's
    Heavily sedated for your protection.

  7. #47

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    Hi John,
    Thanks for that info. Maybe that is why I liked the XD-11 so much? I shot everything from a wedding to landscapes on that camera...wish I never had sold it! (But ah...when you need money)
    Anyway, I once took a shot of my daughter in a camping tent with that XD-11 and Minolta 50mm f1.4 lens hand held at 1/8 second shutter speed. Amazingly, it is sharp! Not as sharp as a tripod would have done, probably, but enough for a decent 8x10. Guess I got lucky...but perhaps that is a testament to the well dampened mirror? Wish it had MLU anyway, though.

    OK, after looking at prices and really sitting down thinking about it, I'm pretty much torn between getting an XD-11 and some good Minolta Rokkor primes again or trying the Contax G2. Only bummer about the G2 is I'm limited to a 90mm tele.
    I rarely used to shoot anything but the 24 - 100mm range with my SLR, but now that I live in Ventura, I've thought about doing some surfing shots, and I'd need some reach for that!
    Thanks for all the help everyone! If you can think of other stuff I should consider, please let me know. I've got the money saved up now for the rest of the darkroom gear I need, and if all goes well, maybe I'll drive down to Freestyle Photo on Monday.
    Jed

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah Smith View Post
    Hi John,
    I rarely used to shoot anything but the 24 - 100mm range with my SLR, but now that I live in Ventura, I've thought about doing some surfing shots, and I'd need some reach for that!
    With the price of film bodies being what it is nowadays, there's no reason not to get a rangefinder *and* an SLR body to use with long lenses...
    M6, SL, SL2, R5, P6x7, SL3003, SL35-E, F, F2, FM, FE-2, Varex IIa

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rol_Lei Nut View Post
    Which Nikon camera? Again, the F & F2 had notoriously undampened shutters & mirrors. Also My FM & FE2 have more "kick" than average.

    Leaf shutters definitely (usually) cause less movement.

    Like SLRs, also rangefinder cameras undoubtedly have more or less dampened shutters.

    There are some SLRs which come close to rangefinders as far as vibrations are concerned. Needs to be looked at on a model by model basis (and condition - the need for a CLA, could also play a role).
    Well, I didn't want to say it, but it's my D700. The fact that it's digital should have no bearing on mirror-slap issues, though I generally refrain from discussing digital cameras on this forum. I never noticed mirror-slap with my F100 under similar shooting situations, but then I couldn't try it both ways and pixel-peep like I can with digital.
    Last edited by GeorgeDexter; 01-28-2010 at 12:45 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #50

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    I think at this point most of us have at least used a digital, so no big deal. It's just that we prefer film or analog process for one reason or another.
    Do you think the D700 is lighter than your F100 and has less mass to combat the mirror vibration or anything like that? Or maybe it's just the way they made the mechanism internally that isn't quite as good at reducing the "thwack" when it lifts?

    Also at Keith - thanks for clarifying that for me on the rangefinder / long shutter speed issue. It is starting to make a lot of sense. I've got to decide if the abilities of the rangefinder outweigh the ease of use I've come to have with an SLR.
    Jed

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