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  1. #81

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    Of course mirror vibration exists. Although the areas where it's the most vexing (high magnifications, long telephotos) are situations you can't really use a rangefinder anyway.

    In addition to all the other problems, the order of magnitude is completely off in the laser/penny tests. How much effective (subject space) movement would you need to make newsprint unsharp? 0.25mm maybe? Can you really see an instantaneous movement that small in a fuzzy consumer laser spot? Now translate that to an amount of actual camera movement. Do you really think the penny test is going to show that?

    For handheld shooting at critical speeds I found getting away from the human movement caused by the button press (by using a self timer, a cable release in the other hand, or burst mode on one of Satan's little toys) more important than camera mechanics.

    Although sure, past that point, my Hi-Matic and Mamiya Universal completely smoked my XD-11 at similar critical speeds/angles of view. My DSLR kept up a little better because of burst mode—out of eight shots there'd usually be one or two where human shake and mirror shake mostly canceled out and gave me something decently sharp. The other 6-7 were often even worse than the XD-11, not that it really matters.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterSense View Post
    No, it will not be blurred, unless the laser pointer is poorly attached and moves in relation to the camera. Laser pointers do not leave trails on the wall; it just looks like they do. Why don't you try it some time and report back.
    What, your walls aren't covered in slow decay phosphors? Sigh, I guess I get what I deserve when I attempt thought experiments under the influence of cold medicine. Still cameras do not have persistence of vision like cathode ray tubes or the human eye so I was totally off-base.

  3. #83
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    In your defense, the laser spot can blur even if the laser pointer is attached firmly to the camera, because the laser pointer is probably not oriented exactly along the axis of the lens, and thus there will be a small amount of blur from parallax effect if the wall moves closer and farther to the wall during the course of the wiggling.
    f/22 and be there.

  4. #84
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    This stuff is really funny, the bits about laser pointers and pennies. In order for a test to provide any meaningful information there needs to be a context, and "speermints" like these don't really have one. Camera design, exposure time and focal length all play important roles in how a mirror slap will affect sharpness. One combination may yield on result, and a different combination another. You control what you can. When sharpness is critical and the subject allows I use MLU, because it can't hurt, and sometimes it makes a difference, and sometimes not. When it isn't practical I use a better shutter speed if I can, or I takes my chances. In regard to the range finder vs SLR thing, you use the tool that is appropriate. In all my professional life I personally have never chosen to use a rangefinder based on shutter vibration, although the situation might arise where I might. When I have chosen to use a rangefinder it has always been a matter of ergonomics, optics, and noise. MLU is simply a feature on some SLR's that can be used when appropriate, nothing more and nothing less.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    This stuff is really funny, the bits about laser pointers and pennies. In order for a test to provide any meaningful information there needs to be a context, and "speermints" like these don't really have one. Camera design, exposure time and focal length all play important roles in how a mirror slap will affect sharpness. One combination may yield on result, and a different combination another. You control what you can. When sharpness is critical and the subject allows I use MLU, because it can't hurt, and sometimes it makes a difference, and sometimes not. When it isn't practical I use a better shutter speed if I can, or I takes my chances. In regard to the range finder vs SLR thing, you use the tool that is appropriate. In all my professional life I personally have never chosen to use a rangefinder based on shutter vibration, although the situation might arise where I might. When I have chosen to use a rangefinder it has always been a matter of ergonomics, optics, and noise. MLU is simply a feature on some SLR's that can be used when appropriate, nothing more and nothing less.
    The bottom line is what I said may posts ago. Mirror bounce is not a factor for speeds shorter than 1/[focal length]. For longer shutter speeds use a tripod and if you think it is necessary the MLU. Since then this thread has been a great waste of internet bandwidth and time.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    The bottom line is what I said may posts ago. Mirror bounce is not a factor for speeds shorter than 1/[focal length]. For longer shutter speeds use a tripod and if you think it is necessary the MLU. Since then this thread has been a great waste of internet bandwidth and time.

    Steve
    And I'll note again that many published experiments have shown this statement to be inaccurate.
    -brian hayden
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by zumbido View Post
    And I'll note again that many published experiments have shown this statement to be inaccurate.
    They don't show a thing except in regards to a specific camera/focal length/exposure time/focus. That's the real point. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. There are so many variables involved with this subject that absolutes have no validity. The only absolute is what you wind up with after the fact using all the tools to the best of your ability within the parameters of a specific situation. All of the debates and experiments involve an involuntary subjectivity because of the inescapable nature of photographic possibilities, and that isn't a very solid place to stand. If someone made a test with the exact camera, lens, focal length, and exposure, and had the same idea as me as to what constituted sharpness, I'd pay attention. Other than that, it's a TV in another room.

    Rather than "does it make a difference?", which of course it can, the question should be "in what situations might it make a difference, and if so, how much?"
    Last edited by JBrunner; 02-05-2010 at 01:03 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #88
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    They don't show a thing except in regards to a specific camera/focal length/exposure time/focus. That's the real point. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. There are so many variables involved with this subject that absolutes have no validity. The only absolute is what you wind up with after the fact using all the tools to the best of your ability within the parameters of a specific situation. All of the debates and experiments involve an involuntary subjectivity because of the inescapable nature of photographic possibilities, and that isn't a very solid place to stand. If someone made a test with the exact camera, lens, focal length, and exposure, and had the same idea as me as to what constituted sharpness, I'd pay attention. Other than that, it's a TV in another room.

    Rather than "does it make a difference?", which of course it can, the question should be "in what situations might it make a difference, and if so, how much?"
    I am glad that someone get it.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterSense View Post
    Laser pointers do not leave trails on the wall; it just looks like they do.
    Considering that the dot from a laser pointer is something that the film sees during exposure, then what something "looks like" to the film is exactly what will be recorded. Of course it is not left on the wall. We all know that. It is just a ray of light, not a ray gun beam that marks the wall. However, if the shutter is open, and the aperture is such that you can properly expose the dot on the wall, there will be a streak in the picture.

    The point I am making is that the streak is not very informative. It tells you how much movement there is, but does not tell you how much movement is acceptable.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  10. #90

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    Hi

    The reason why people use rfdrs, like M2, Canon P or Retina IIIs for street shooting is

    shutter lag - milliseconds
    shutter noise - in a noisy street - unobtrusive

    Many SLR's e.g. OM1 wont have much mirror bounce until the return stroke when the picture is in the can but will still be noisy and have more delay.

    Note with the OM1 you can inhibit the mirror.

    In HCB's day the Nikon F was not available and SLR were not really used by PJ.

    It is possible to tolerate the delay of a Contax G1 or G2, and the lenses are excellent, but it is difficult to justify.

    Noel

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