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  1. #191
    Rol_Lei Nut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhosten View Post
    I also took crap pix with Bronica ECTL, and was also really horrible at 8x10 with an unstable B&J. I don't blame cameras for bad pictures, but figure that if I take better pictures, in some cases almost unrecognizably better, then I must not work well with the cameras with which I produce lack lustre results. So, I ditch the ones I don't work well with, and gravitate more to the cameras I produce better work with. I must be the only photographer who regularly shot utter crap on an M series Leica.... it is not the rangefinder itself though, as I have taken very good pictures with an XA, and a 4x5 Razzledog 110 conversion, so I am not sure what the problem was.
    Fair enough... Many reasons not to have good results, either technical or artistic, with a given camera.

    While IMHO I've taken some very good pictures with my Nikon F & Nikon FM, I never managed to take a decent picture with my F2, even though the shots were technically impeccable and the F2 is supposed to be a "better" camera (certainly ergonomically!).
    Sometimes certain cameras "work" emotionally, ergonomically or creatively for some people and some just don't.

    On a more technical side, perhaps your M had an old/hazy/decentered/unadjusted/jinxed lens or whatever: plenty of technical reasons for lackluster results as well.

    So, more than ever, YMMV...
    M6, SL, SL2, R5, P6x7, SL3003, SL35-E, F, F2, FM, FE-2, Varex IIa

  2. #192
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    My M2 is so easy to use, no dead battery, no pesky autofocus, just pure pleasure.
    Michael Cienfuegos


    If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them.

  3. #193

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    Mr Kuiper of the Netherlands if you truly have a black M3 sell it for more money than you paid and buy an M6

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilmsmaggie View Post
    IMHO, collectors are making a mess of the used camera market. Especially when it comes to Leica's.
    The good thing is that you can use just about any other 35mm camera and get a picture that no one can prove was not taken with a Leica.

    I'm just glad I don't need a '58 Les Paul sunburst to get my guitar sound. Collectors have driven those up over $50,000.

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    The good thing is that you can use just about any other 35mm camera and get a picture that no one can prove was not taken with a Leica.

    I'm just glad I don't need a '58 Les Paul sunburst to get my guitar sound. Collectors have driven those up over $50,000.

    You mean $500,000...I sold my '59 burst 10 years ago for $75,000 and I thought I was being smart
    As far as that sound, through a Marshall Bluesbreaker combo...I can still hear it and no, there isn't anything else like it.

  6. #196
    T42
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    @dhosten
    Hilarious, but unfortunately more true than many would care to admit. No, I do not have Leica envy, I have Porsche 911 Turbo Whale Tail envy. I had a perfectly good M3 DS, and only took average quality pix with it. So I sold it.
    I suppose that whether one writes and signs his name with a pencil or with a Montblanc 149 his signature and writing style will come right on through.

    I have several rangefinders and several SLRs. My way of taking pictures, for better or worse, is about the same with all of them. But my pleasure of use is really high with the Leica M3.

    @one90guy
    T42 If I sold all my film kit I still could not afford a Leica. Not that I would not like to use or own one. My only point is there are other robust and simple cameras, would you not agree?
    I agree absolutely. One can make pictures with a Kiev 4a and 50mm Jupiter 8 (Carl Zeiss Sonnar Clone) which would appear equally good to most folks, and that for about 10 cents on the dollar compared to an M3 with a 50mm Summicron. The same could probably be said about some Feds, Zorkis, and Canonet rangefinders, among other "affordable" choices.

    Thank you for the mm 120 information, I am fairly new to medium format. I have used 35mm since 1968 and when ordering 120 I assumed it was the same. I have learned a lot from this board, I spend a lot of time lurking and reading. I do not find many questions or subjects that I think I could add anything.
    We are both students here, then. I also have learned much from our fellow APUG Members. I suspect that you and most folks here know much which could help some others learn more about this hobby we all love so much.

    Last edited by T42; 12-17-2011 at 08:59 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo
    Henry
    A Certified Dinosaur
    Nikons F, F2, D700, Leica M3, & Kiev 4a

  7. #197

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    It shouldn't be that hard to understand why a truly classic camera with a storied history of both use and optical/mechanical quality, sought by photographers, collectors, and fondlers alike, commands high prices.

    That doesn't mean the camera itself is going to be the be-all and end-all of performance, especially with regard to a more current design. It does speak to some uniqueness, especially in the modern era, and long-term quality.

    Priced an e-type Jaguar lately? Some people would love one of them to keep in the garage and polish, others to go out and tear up the road, others to restore and drive conservatively, etc. That multiplicity just raises the demand even higher.

    If current Leica prices put you off, but you want a rangefinder, there are other options now, which is pretty awesome, especially since you can try classic or modern Leica glass on most should you choose, or perfectly high-quality brand-new options from CV. They might lack some of the fondler's lust, but they do pretty well on that score, too.

    Still, the internals of a classic M camera are a type of hand-fit quality from another era, like a fine watch. For those of us who use the camera from the outside, and to whom the film advance is a way to get to the next frame of film rather than a tactile orgasm to be quietly repeated in the privacy of one's living room, I doubt it matters all too much. But there's nothing stopping appreciation of its quality while in real-world use, either.

    I dunno, I like my M3 well enough, although replacing it with an FM2 would likely not change my photos much. The smaller size of the Leica is what I really love.

  8. #198
    T42
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    Priced an e-type Jaguar lately?
    Back in the early 80s I had a discussion with a gentleman who owns a Jaguar dealership here. He told me that when someone wants a new Jaguar, he has a "special talk" with them. The prospective customer needs to know that these cars require "frequent attention" to keep them running well. They are not a good choice for reliable, affordable, basic transportation, he said. But they can make a wonderful "social statement."

    IMO, Jaguar's similarity with Leica ends with the social statement. And I wonder about that. Most folks do not even recognize an M3 when they see it. But they probably would recognize a Jaguar.

    I have never owned any other mechanical device which I felt was equal to the Leica M3 in terms of concept, fit, finish, ease of use, maintained value, freedom from trouble, and durability. Nikons F and F2 are close.

    But I have owned three European cars. One Triumph and two Mercedes. My uncle who is a life long mechanic says of them "When there ain't no oil under a European car, there ain't no oil in the European car." In my three samples, he was exactly correct.

    Last edited by T42; 12-20-2011 at 11:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    Henry
    A Certified Dinosaur
    Nikons F, F2, D700, Leica M3, & Kiev 4a

  9. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by T42 View Post
    Back in the early 80s I had a discussion with a gentleman who owns a Jaguar dealership here. He told me that when someone wants a new Jaguar, he has a "special talk" with them. The prospective customer needs to know that these cars require "frequent attention" to keep them running well. They are not a good choice for reliable, affordable, basic transportation, he said. But they can make a wonderful "social statement."

    IMO, Jaguar's similarity with Leica ends with the social statement. And I wonder about that. Most folks do not even recognize an M3 when they see it. But they probably would recognize a Jaguar.

    I have never owned any other mechanical device which I felt was equal to the Leica M3 in terms of concept, fit, finish, ease of use, maintained value, freedom from trouble, and durability. Nikons F and F2 are close.

    But I have owned three European cars. One Triumph and two Mercedes. My uncle who is a life long mechanic says of them "When there ain't no oil under a European car, there ain't no oil in the European car." In my three samples, he was exactly correct.

    I hear ya; wasn't trying to make an extended analogy, but just point out that while there are mid-level sporty cars out there that are modern and far more reliable which will blow the doors off some classic cars, the classics are still often more expensive, and most people understand why.

    The leica's similar in that respect, although on the maintenance end the analogy begins to fail. Not that a mechanical shutter doesn't require more maintenance attention than an electrically-timed one, but yeah.

    Anyhow, I don't think it should be so hard to understand how Leicas end up priced how they are, and for those seeking cameras to use, especially to own and use in the long-term, the cost of ownership isn't really that high. Only the glass-case collectors are buying gold, brass, and three-legged ostrich-skin pearl jubilee models that cost $50k. Why? I dunno. But if successfully selling those things keeps Leica in business, cool!

  10. #200
    T42
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    Anyhow, I don't think it should be so hard to understand how Leicas end up priced how they are, and for those seeking cameras to use, especially to own and use in the long-term, the cost of ownership isn't really that high. Only the glass-case collectors are buying gold, brass, and three-legged ostrich-skin pearl jubilee models that cost $50k. Why? I dunno. But if successfully selling those things keeps Leica in business, cool!
    I agree wholeheartedly. First cost is often confused with cost of ownership. First cost really only applies with disposable products and consumables. It probably costs less to OWN a Leica than most folks realize. But getting them past that initial purchase hurdle seems to be the blockade to realizing the low cost of ownership and the high level of satisfaction in using a Leica M.

    Henry
    A Certified Dinosaur
    Nikons F, F2, D700, Leica M3, & Kiev 4a



 

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