thank you gentlemen, it is nice to know i am not out in left field.

Donald;
i have a saying i use all the time
You can have anything you want , you just can't have everything.


you also tweaked my memory with regard to were i got the orginal thoughts about this, I studied with a fellow who had worked with Fred Picker.
My instructor was the first person i worked with who changed my world around and made sense.
I know that Fred can still bring out the flame wars but it made a huge difference in my life as i was just struggling along, self taught and not knowing which end was up .

I will get back with this fellow and share the collective thoughts.

Suggested to him that this would be a good place to visit and hang out to get some good advise from people who care and know what they are talking about. We shall see.

Another favorite saying
"you can lead a horse to water; you can't make it swim on it's back" It is the old school teacher in me.