Bill, I am up, I won't be talked out of another outing. I've been going to Physical Therapy and am stronger than when I saw you guys last. For everybody who wants to go next winter, I had an adventure which Bill and Ike can attest to with my ice cleats. After we cam back home, Murray Minchin posted a link to some cleats called Micro Spikes. I bought them and have them in my car all the time, they won't come off and are good in all surfaces. Thomas, they work really well on wet rocks. I want to camp next time, I have all the stuff!!!..See you guys..Evan